Doctrine trims ranks of Baptist missionaries

Fort Worth Star Telegram ^ | 6/5/2003 | Jim Jones

[dsc]

What in the world is "moderate" about women pastors?

Looks like that same old definition: A moderate is somebody who doesn't oppose the radicals.

[dark_lord]

I don't know why they would want to prohibit woman pastors. As far as I know there is only one reference to the word "pastor" in the whole bible, and that is in Ephesians, and the duties are not defined. But we do know that there were female deacons quite early, see Romans 16:1 (some translations say "servant" but when footnoted it will show that the word for servant is otherwhere translated deacon.) Perhaps a Baptist can enlighten me.

[jboot]

Not that I agree with them, but as a lifelong (until recently) SB, I know at least some of the source scripture for this rationale:

1. 1 Timothy 2:12
   But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority
   over a man, but to remain quiet.
2. 1 Timothy 3:2
   An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband
   of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable,
   hospitable, able to teach...

"Overseer" is usually translated "Bishop", but the SBC applies these rules to pastors, presumably because there are no bishops in the hierarchy. 1 Tim. 3:12 is also interpreted in some SBC's as an injunction against divorced men holding church offices.

I have been continually puzzled by the rigorous application of these rules, but total indifference to other "church order" doctrines, such as head coverings. Some of the wildest hair-dos I've ever seen were sported by SB women during worship services. Also, women ARE allowed to teach other women and children, and are definately NOT encouraged to keep quiet. What's up with that?

[maestro]

FYI-ping

This whole issue is about 'Darwin Evolution' (Bible Relativism) verses 'Creationism' (Creator-Redeemer-God of Bible Absolutes)

BOTTOM LINE.........Adam was created FIRST,...then Eve taken/made from Adam's Rib!

Maranatha!

ROMANS 10:17

[LiteKeeper]

SPOTREP

[drstevej]

***Forty-three Southern Baptist missionaries lost their jobs in May because they refused to sign a controversial faith statement that opposes women pastors and says wives should "graciously submit" to the servant leadership of their husbands.***

Good. They should resign.

That (BFM) is the doctrinal statement of the group that sends them. The changes were approved in an orderly way by the denomination.

What doctrine is not controversial? Only if it says nothing is it non-controversial. The deity of Christ is controversial in the highest order.

The liberals are just not use to conservative forces regaining ground. No tears from me.

-drstevej

[jboot]

Ok, I can accept that. But since we are taking an absolutist stand, what about women not speaking?

1 Tim. 2:12 does not merely state that women are subject to men and cannot be pastors, it says that they cannot speak at all during the assembly. Does your church have women in the choir? Are women teaching Sunday School? Do women ever give testimonies? If so, you are violating the letter of this rule.

[Conservative til I die]

These people are no different than dissident Catholics who say it's not fair that they have to adhere to certain doctrines of the Catholic Church.

Simple solution: You don't like the doctrines of a certain sect or branch of a sect? Go find another one or start your own.

[Cleburne]

They say the statement is sexist and elevates the Bible over personal experience with Jesus.

Incredible. I for one am quite glad to elevate the Bible over my personal experience. And I am quite happy to elevate a creed composed by men much better than myself over my personal opinions, which have a tendency to change often.

[Alamo-Girl]

It is troubling to me whenever one tries to ignore, alter or overrule any part of the Word. It doesn't matter whether they do it because they find the Word inconvenient or offensive - or whether they value their own understanding or tradition equal or above God's will.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. - Mark 7:7

The Word comes first:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. - John 1:1-2

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. - John 1:14

[Is2C]

It is troubling to me whenever one tries to ignore, alter or overrule any part of the Word. It doesn't matter whether they do it because they find the Word inconvenient or offensive - or whether they value their own understanding or tradition equal or above God's will.

I agree whole-heartedly. The only question that I have is whether not allowing women to be pastors is verifiably biblical. Seems a shame to lose all those willling servants if it is an inaccurate interpretation of scripture.

[Alex Murphy]

...They say the statement is sexist and elevates the Bible over personal experience with Jesus...

This one statement says it all. No Sola Scriptura for these people.

[RnMomof7]

***Forty-three Southern Baptist missionaries lost their jobs in May because they refused to sign a controversial faith statement that opposes women pastors and says wives should "graciously submit" to the servant leadership of their husbands.***
Good. They should resign.
That (BFM) is the doctrinal statement of the group that sends them. The changes were approved in an orderly way by the denomination.
What doctrine is not controversial? Only if it says nothing is it non-controversial. The deity of Christ is controversial in the highest order.
The liberals are just not use to conservative forces regaining ground. No tears from me.

Me either Steve. The Bible makes no provision for women Pastors.

I think the SBC is well rid of them

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

[drstevej]

The sad thing is all the money that has gone to these liberals on the missions field in the past. Great to finally smoke them out!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your post and for your question! Here's what I found on first blush:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. - I Corinthians 14:34-35

Notably, that is limited to women speaking in the church environment - which I take to mean preaching and envangelizing. Women are obviously a standard bearer at home, in Sunday schools, Bible study and so forth.

We can also see by example, that women ought to praise God, which I take to mean choirs as well, and pray and fast:

And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; And she [was] a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served [God] with fastings and prayers night and day. - Luke 2:36-37

Notwithstanding that Paul calls it a "shame for a woman to speak in the church" it strikes more as a spiritual misdemeanor than a felony. Just my two cents on that one...

[RnMomof7]

This whole issue is about 'Darwin Evolution' (Bible Relativism) verses 'Creationism' (Creator-Redeemer-God of Bible Absolutes) BOTTOM LINE.........Adam was created FIRST,...then Eve taken/made from Adam's Rib!

Paul calls on a scripitual teaching to stake out his position, so we know it was not cultural.He harkened back to the order of creation as evidence it is God ordained.

  1Ti 2:11   Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

     1Ti 2:12   But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

     1Ti 2:13   For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

[Alex Murphy]

I've read an argument (one that I agree with) that Paul is actually talking to married women ("let them ask their husbands"), and not to women in general.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your post! Indeed, it could be read more narrowly.