Review of Liturgical Reform Proposed by Cardinal Sodano

Zenit News Agency ^ | August 29, 2003 | Zenit

[JNB]

I agree here, having a seperate rite for the Tridentine mass would further balkanise the church and also further hamper efforts to restore reverence to the Novus Ordo. One thing about traditionalists, who have used the internet to get organised in many cases, is they have lit a fire under the back end of many to improve the present liturgical situation.

While having a seperate rite would have some advantages for traditional Catholics, such as the ability to set up shop whereever they want, more resources to gain more vocations and ordain more and more priests, it would not be good for the overall chruch, and it would derail overall liturgical restoration. The reason why Catholics did not have their right to kneel for communion taken away was because traditional leaning Catholics attending the Novus Ordo wrote many letters to Rome, this very well may not have happened if they were attending Tridentine only parish'.

[ninenot]

Yup.

[sinkspur]

The reason why Catholics did not have their right to kneel for communion taken away was because traditional leaning Catholics attending the Novus Ordo wrote many letters to Rome, this very well may not have happened if they were attending Tridentine only parish'.

Of course, if kneeling for communion was the locus of objection to the Novus Ordo, then the Tridentine advocates could attend a Mass of their own rite.

it would not be good for the overall chruch, and it would derail overall liturgical restoration.

Your "liturgical restoration" involves, no doubt, a full return to the Tridentine Rite.

Listen to this carefully, JNB:That is not going to happen! Now, given that reality, we can move forward, and discuss further.

[JNB]

Did I say for the restoration of the Tridentine mass as the normative mass? No. As I mentioned on other threads, for the most part the Novus Ordo missal is sound, the problem comes from sloppy rubrics and a poor translation. As I have also mentioned, the Novus Ordo can be celebrated in such a manner to make it almost iodentical to the TRidentine mass, while in theory(and by 1970 in practice) the Tridentine mass can be celebrated in such a sloppy, non reverent manner to make it look almost identical to so many suburban parish' today.

To me and many others, a restoration would include getting rid of altar girls, getting rid of EEMs(a good solution would be to require all priests and deacons, the ordinary ministers of the Eucharist to be present at all day of obligation masses), communion under both species via intionction, getting rid of altar girls, restoration of the communion rail, having only the Roman Cannon I as the only Eucharistic Prayer and a missal in properly English. Except for the missal translation itself, the pastor has the power to do all of these things if he so wishes.

Things such as Vernacular, or the direction the priest faces( it would take a large amount of education in a slow manner to get the laity to understand the "ad orientum" posture) are issues that people who want to restore the mass can live with. Anyways, time is running out on the Vatican II era clergy who protect many of the abuses, and after 2010, it is going to be difficult for people who want to block the restoration to hold on to their power.

[sinkspur]

Anyways, time is running out on the Vatican II era clergy who protect many of the abuses, and after 2010, it is going to be difficult for people who want to block the restoration to hold on to their power.

The "restoration" as you envision it, is some sort of retro to the Tridentine, am I not correct?

That is not going to happen.

Abuses should, and will, be corrected.

But there will be a movement forward from the USCCB, and the Vatican.

Those who wish to dwell on prior commitments, are free to do so.

[JNB]

About kneeling for communion, again it is a perfectly valid posture, and again sinkspur, thankfully Tradtional leaning Catholics wrote letters to Rome. You may want to get rid of us, put us in our own rite, but guess what, you will not be able to get rid of us that easily. The normative rite will regain its lost reverence, the reverence that still is present in a handful of Parish' such as Assumption Grotto in Detroit, in the long term.

[JNB]

How can you say what or wont happen in the future? Retro TRidentine? Sorry to break it to you, but all the things I mentioned are perfectly valid options right now in the normative missal, no permission from the Bishop is needed. As the Vatican II era clergy retire sinkspur, more and more people, especially the more recently ordained priests will look at restoration of sacred traditions, as younger Catholics do not view Vatican II or the "Sprit of Vatican II" as their main focal point.

I am still wonder how you can say that a restoration "Wont happen" why, because your generatioon does not want it to happen? I know you mean well sinkspur, but your presence here really gives a big insight on how many Vatican II era clergy think, and how set in their ways they are. The old gaurd wont old on forever is all I can say.

[Snuffington]

The Novus Ordo is the normative Mass of the Latin Rite. Period. The Tridentine Mass is an exception, and will always be an exception.

The Church tossed out the only "normative Mass of the Latin Rite" (that would be that pesky "exception" you speak of) that had ever existed once already within your own lifetime in favor of something else it made up on the spot. Why this instills you with some notion of permanence is truly beyond me.

The thing troubling the Novus Ordo now is that it's spinning apart amidst its own innovation. Going from parish to parish within my own diocese is frequently like visiting another denomination. Sure there are rubrics, but they're not really enforced. Those who hold to the Novus Ordo most fervently are those who cherish innovation and iconoclasm, and that includes almost every bishop. Not the stuff for creating permanence or a "normative" anything.

The first generation to observe the Novus Ordo is still living, and the thing is obviously experiencing serious doubt. It may well die in its cradle.

[Snuffington]

If we had parishes that offered only the TLM we would all be happy(including you).

I have to side with sinkspur on this one. You're largely right, but there is definitely an element within traditional circles which passionately desires to do away with the Novus Ordo. A Tridentine Rite would not cause them to cease those efforts.

[pipeorganman]

Good points. There is one Indult in Boston in a back alley but beautiful parish. The Tridentine is at noontime and the rest of the Masses are NO. So far, I haven't heard about any problems (demanding daily low Masses, etc) and the Indult has been there for about 10 years with a very devoted community...It's a nice community and it seems to me that by bringing back the traditional stuff, the community is more of a community. --- Like I don't see the NO's looking at the Tridentine families like they have two heads. Everyone seems very friendly.

We have the same thing here in Indianapolis. Around five years ago, the Archbishop gave us a permanent home. It was an older parish, that was slowly dying and slated to be closed in the near future. This was because the younger generation had moved out of the neighborhood. The first year was a little rough, as both sides did have a natural distrust of one-another. But as time passed, we have become friends.

Sundays and Holy days, both Masses are sung. Weekdays, the 2 Masses are alternated. Quite a few of the local trads attend the weekday NO Mass, and some of the NO folks attend the Low Mass during the other days.

We have the Sacraments available in both Rites, and the Funeral Masses are available also in both Rites.

Parish life is very good. We have First Friday, all night Exposition. At first, it was supported only by the trads, but now, the NO folks are helping to fill up the night hours. They are also increasingly taking part in other devotions, such as the annual Corpus Christi procession. We have an annual festival in which both groups volunteer to work, and I could go on.

As an aside, I am not sure what the Indult parish does regarding the "table" altar. It is nowhere to be seen during the Tridentine Mass.

Due to necessity, we move it to the side and down into the nave, and bring it back into position after High Mass. During the week, whenever Low Mass is celebrated, one of the side altars are used, leaving the NO altar in place for the NO weekday Masses.

We also have portable communion rails. They are moved to the center for High Mass and moved in front of the side altars for the NO Mass. Personally, I wish they were permanent. Maybe someday soon.

When we arrived at the church, there was no confessional. That's right, there was no confessional. It was removed during a wreckovation during the early eighties. A new confessional was built that accomodates both Rites.

All in all, this has worked out very well, and we both look forward to many more years of happy and peaceful co-existance.

[Thorondir]

Now, Thorondir, I know you're going to question my motives here, and that's fine.

No. Not really. Your solution would be fine with me, I think, though I am not certain I know what you are saying. It would be fine for me not to have the twister-players paw at me like chimpanzees during an irreverent gossip-society gathering, where I have to walk out hurt at the end and tell my children to push all of father's wacked-out heresies out of their minds on the way home.

That's all I ask. Is it too much? I just want to be a plain, old, rational, reverent, Catholic rather than a Druid/Gaia/Wiccan/Feminazi/Liberal/Modernist/Beelzebubbian.

Now I know that many NO masses are good and reverent and clean, but the situation is mind-bogglingly out-of-control here in Tuscoddom and Arizomorrah.

[Thorondir]

Abuses should, and will, be corrected.

That would be wonderful, but how? Give me some hope that the NO wilding will be corrected. How is it going to happen?

[dsc]

"Actually, I trained a class of 14 lay people to assume the Office of Lector over the last three days."

And how many of them were women?

Your solution is analgous to Neville Chamberlain acquiescing in the takeover of Czechoslovakia. The underlying misconception is that "peace will result if we just agree to their legitimate claim to what they have taken so far."

It won't. Satan settles for nothing but the whole ball of wax.

[sinkspur]

And how many of them were women?

Ten.

[dsc]

"Ten."

In direct violation of the Scriptures.

[As you well know...]

Amen

[As you well know...]

Beautiful. THis is what I had in mind and it is what I think Sinkspur has in mind. Among us on these threads are those who cling to the port side of the Barque and those who cling to the starboard side.

We can be a positive influence on each other and following Sinkspurs suggestion is one way to do it.

The Barque moves through troubled waters by the pneuma of the Holy Ghost and sometimes we tack to one side and sometimes the other. We Catholics, for most of our existence, have had more than one Rite available to us and, as ol' Msgr. Nolan learnt me, " And that then, is as it should be."

I have really enjoyed this thread and the signs of hope and goodwill shown here

[sinkspur]

In direct violation of the Scriptures.

Take it up with the Pope. I don't make the rules.

[rogator]

"Now I know that many NO masses are good and reverent and clean, but the situation is mind-bogglingly out-of-control here in Tuscoddom and Arizomorrah"

Having grown up in Arizona and left there in the very early sixties, I was amazed at the liturgical wasteland I encountered when I was assigned to an Arizona air base in 1984. I did not even recognize the interiors of churches I had attended and served Mass in fifteen years earlier. The abuses in the Masses were outrageous.
Unfortunately the abuses I encountered then in Arizona I am encountering now in Oregon.