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The FReeper Foxhole Remembers Operation Linebacker II - DEC 19th, 2002
Posted on 12/19/2002 5:37:52 AM PST by SAMWolf
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Operation Linebacker II
The Christmas Bombing - 1972
Operation Linebacker II operations were initiated on 18 December 1972 and were directed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) to continue until further notice. The primary objective of the bombing operation would be to force the North Vietnamese government to enter into purposeful negotiations concerning a cease-fire agreement. The operation employed air power to its maximum capabilities in an attempt to destroy all major target complexes such as radio stations, railroads, power plants, and airfields located in the Hanoi and Haiphong areas. Unlike previous bombing campaigns, Linebacker II provided the Air Force and U.S. Naval forces with specific objectives and removed many of the restrictions that had previously caused frustration within the Pentagon.
During these operations, Air Force and Navy tactical aircraft and B-52s commenced an around-the-clock bombardment of the North Vietnamese heartland. The B-52s struck Hanoi and Haiphong during hours of darkness with F-111s and Navy tactical aircraft providing diversionary/suppression strikes on airfields and surface-to-air missile sites. Daylight operations were primarily carried out by A-7s and F-4s bombing visually or with long-range navigation (LORAN) techniques, depending upon the weather over the targets. In addition, escort aircraft such as the Air Force EB-66s and Navy EA-6s broadcast electronic jamming signals to confuse the radar-controlled defenses of the North. The Strategic Air Command also provided KC-135s to support the in-flight refueling requirements of the various aircraft participating in Linebacker II operations.
Andersen Air Force Base in Guam was the site of the most massive buildup of air power in history. More than 15,000 people and more than 150 B-52s lined all available space on the flightline. During Operation Linebacker II in December 1972, bombers stationed at Andersen flew 729 sorties in 11 days.
Navy tactical air attack sorties under Linebacker II were centered in the coastal areas around Hanoi and Haiphong. There were 505 Navy sorties in this area during Linebacker II. The following carriers participated in Linebacker II operations: Enterprise, Saratoga, Oriskany, America and Ranger. Aircraft of the Seventh Fleet performed the most extensive aerial mining operation in history, blockading the enemy's main avenues of supply. The reseeding of the mine fields was resumed and concentrated strikes were carried out against surface-to-air missile and anti-aircraft artillery sites, enemy army barracks, petroleum storage areas, Haiphong Naval and shipyard areas, and railroad and truck stations.
Between 18 and 22 December the Navy conducted 119 Linebacker II strikes in North Vietnam. The attack effort was concentrated in the Haiphong area. Strikes were conducted against surface-to-air missile and anti-aircraft artillery installations, railroads and highways Thanh Hoa Army barracks, the Haiphong Naval Base, petroleum centers and other military related targets.
Until the cease-fire ending US combat operations in Vietnam took effect on 28 January 1973, USS America and the other carriers ranged off the coast of Vietnam, conducting strike operations in support of troops and targeting strategic targets throughout North Vietnam.
On 25 December 1972 a Christmas Day bombing/tactical air attack recess went into effect during which none of the US air services flew sorties. Heavy raids around Hanoi, which resumed the day after the Christmas bombing halt, were eased as NVN showed indications of returning to the conference table.
The impact of the bombing was obvious in the severe damage to the North Vietnamese logistic and war-support capability. By 29 December 1972, the 700 nighttime sorties flown by B-52s and 650 daytime strikes by fighter and attack aircraft persuaded the North Vietnamese government to return to the conference table. Linebacker II formally ended on 27 January 1973.
Bad weather was the main limiting factor on the number of tactical air strikes flown during Linebacker II.
Of 741 planned B-52 sorties, 12 were aborted. The Air Force SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) mission was carried out by F-105, F-4C, and F-4E fighters. CAP (combat air patrol), escort, and chaff dispersal were carried out by numerous types. In addition, US Navy and US Marine aircraft flew a total of 277 night support sorties in A-6, A-7, and F-4 aircraft.
KEYWORDS: airwar; christmasbomming; freeperfoxhole; linebackerii; vietnam
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The United States paid a price for the accomplishments of Linebacker II. During bombing raids, U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy aircraft encountered intense enemy defensive actions that resulted in the loss of twenty-six aircraft in the twelve-day period.
On the first day of Linebacker II, the crew aboard a B-52G would tragically became the first casualty of the operation. The bomber and crew aboard Charcoal-01 launched from Andersen with the first wave of Linebacker II, headed toward their targets in Vietnam. Within seconds of their objective, the B-52 was hit by a surface-to-air missile. The pilot, Col. Donald L. Rissi, and gunner, Master Sgt. Walt Ferguson, were killed. Three other crew members -- Maj. Dick Johnson, radar navigator; Capt. Bob Certain, navigator; and, Capt. Dick Simpson, electronic warfare officer, -- survived the attack, but were taken prisoners of war. The officers were released from captivity in 1973 as part of Operation Homecoming, the return of U.S. service members held as POWs. The status of Lt. Robert J. Thomas, copilot, was unknown at the time of the incident. Officials listed the lieutenant as "missing in action, shot down over North Vietnam, 18 December 1972." Thomas' remains were identified and returned to his family in 1978.
Overall Air Force losses included fifteen B-52s, two F-4s, two F-111s, and one HH-53 search and rescue helicopter. Navy losses included two A-7s, two A-6s, one RA-5, and one F-4. Seventeen of these losses were attributed to SA-2 missiles, three to daytime MiG attacks, three to antiaircraft artillery, and three to unknown causes.
posted on 12/19/2002 5:37:53 AM PST
To: souris; SpookBrat; Victoria Delsoul; MistyCA; AntiJen; SassyMom; bentfeather
In 1997 crews from the US Army Central Identification Lab, Hawaii, and Joint Task Force-Full Accounting excavated the last B-52 crash site from Linebacker II operations in Vietnam. The recovery team began work at the site in November 1997.
posted on 12/19/2002 5:39:11 AM PST
| 'I saw the SAMs as we came in closer to the target area. They made white streaks of light they climbed into the night sky. As they left the ground, they would move slowly, pick up speed as they climbed, and end their flight, finally, in a cascade of sparkles. There were so many of them it reminded me of a Fourth of July fireworks display -- a beautiful sight to watch if I hadn't known how lethal they could be.'
-- Lieutenant Colonel Hendsley Connor, USAF
posted on 12/19/2002 5:39:37 AM PST
Good Morning SAM
Great information thank you.
Comment #5 Removed by Moderator
Thanks Cote! Good to see you visit the Foxhole.
posted on 12/19/2002 6:29:44 AM PST
Good Morning Bentfeather.
posted on 12/19/2002 6:45:28 AM PST
Current Military News
Pearl Harbor Reunion of a Different Sort
PEARL HARBOR, Hawaii (NNS) -- You could call it a family reunion, and it happens every year. Like clockwork, Mary Kreigh comes to Hawaii to visit her twin sister, Nancy.
However, this is not a typical reunion, because Nancy doesnt really live here.
According to Mary, her father, Chief Yeoman Albert T. D. Wagner, had a plan for the final resting place of his daughter, Nancy, who died prematurely in the Philippines. Wagner had his daughter cremated and wanted to spread her ashes at sea.
In fact, he was storing her urn in his locker aboard his ship, USS Utah (AG 16). All he needed was a chaplain, and he could commit his baby to the sea.
That was the plan, but Japanese warplanes changed all that on the morning of Dec. 7, 1941.
Utah had just pulled into Pearl Harbor for the weekend of Dec. 6-7 and moored at berth Fox 11 on the west side of Ford Island. It had just finished its duties as a target ship for the fleet.
One of the first ships hit during the surprise attack by Japanese naval forces, Utah took two torpedoes in her port side. Within 12 minutes, the ship capsized, taking the lives of six officers and 51 Sailors, most trapped aboard the vessel. The others were killed from Japanese strafing attacks while they were swimming for shore.
In all, 58 Utah Sailors died that day. Fortunately, Wagner survived that day, but his daughters ashes went down with the ship.
After the Navy tried to salvage the ship, my dad tried in vain to recover my sisters ashes, said Mary. I never really knew my sister. She died when she was only two days old.
But that doesnt matter to the Wagner family. Mary still visits the Utah Memorial on Ford Island every year from her home in Lompoc, Calif., to remember.
This year, she had company. Dolores Higdon and her husband, Ray, came to the Utah Memorial to remember Dolores 21-year-old brother, Electricians Mate 1st Class Rudolph Martinez. Martinez died that morning 61 years ago. Joining them was Utah survivor Gean Seltzer and Pearl Harbor Medal of Honor recipient John Finn.
The small group laid wreaths at sunset Dec. 6 in memory of those who died and then threw flowers from 58 leis into the water between the memorial and the rusting ship before observing evening colors.
I am so happy to be here, said Dolores, referring to their impromptu gathering. Last year, we had an incredible ceremony from boats to mark the 60th anniversary of the attack. But this was no less moving. There is a certain calm here, especially at sunset. It was meaningful.
I feel nothing but pride and pleasure that my sister is in such magnificent company, she said. I love coming here to remember her and to honor them all. I could not ask for anything better than for her to be tenderly, carefully looked after by Americas finest.
posted on 12/19/2002 6:46:29 AM PST
Current Military News
Deployed troops get 'hugs' through packages
Staff Sgt. Joseph Facilla (left) and Sgt Mark Finney open a box they received from their sponsor at a forward operating base in Southeastern Afghanistan.
KHOST, Afghanistan (Army News Service, Dec. 17, 2002) - The soldiers at this forward operating base have never met Elaine Harmon, but they know she always ends her letters with "Hugs, mom."
Infantrymen from Company B, 3rd Battalion, 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment, deployed to Afghanistan from Fort Bragg, N.C., look forward to the comfort Harmon sends them in large packages.
"She sent a box to our sergeant major who gave it to us," said Sgt. 1st Class Wylie Hutchinson, from Chino, Calif., "and we've been writing her ever since."
He said Harmon sends them packages in themes. For example, for the one-year anniversary of the terrorist attacks, Harmon sent them flags. On Halloween, she sent them items like pumpkin plates, napkins, cups, candy, movies and popcorn.
"She must have spent more than $1,000 on us," Hutchinson said.
Harmon, from Lawrenceville, N.J., makes them feel appreciated said Sgt. Mark Finney, from Phoenix.
"She's great because she gives us a time out," he said. "She thinks we're heroes."
In addition to the regular packages they receive, Harmon elected to do more for the troops.
"The single guys got letters from older women," Finney said.
Harmon also sends individual packages to soldiers on their birthdays.
"I get more from her than my family," Finney said.
In return, he said his company will present her with a gift for all her hard work.
"We're getting her a plaque with an American flag enclosed," Finney said. "We took the flag on every mission."
posted on 12/19/2002 6:53:12 AM PST
To: 06isweak; 0scill8r; 100American; 100%FEDUP; 101st-Eagle; 101stSignal; 101viking; 10mm; 10Ring; ...
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posted on 12/19/2002 7:10:27 AM PST
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The Veterans History Project is a unique opportunity for Americans of all ages and backgrounds to play an important role in the preservation of our national collective memory and to learn important lessons from the rich historical resource we have in our military veterans and civilians who served in support of the war effort.
posted on 12/19/2002 7:15:22 AM PST
I was planning to post this on Christmas Day. Oh well, I'll just have to post the Battle of Trenton and the Delaware Crossing instead.
(Ping list is on the way)
posted on 12/19/2002 7:22:51 AM PST
To: sphinx; Toirdhealbheach Beucail; curmudgeonII; roderick; Notforprophet; river rat; csvset; ...
Operation Linebacker II ping!!!
If you want on or off the Western Civilization Military History ping list, please let me know.
posted on 12/19/2002 7:24:34 AM PST
Thanks for posting that poem. Yes, it is very appropriate for the Foxhole.
posted on 12/19/2002 7:25:22 AM PST
"She thinks we're heroes."
.......She (we) Knows your Heros
Stay Safe Sam!!
posted on 12/19/2002 7:30:16 AM PST
To: AntiJen; SAMWolf
Thanks for the ping.
Thank you for once again helping us to remember our veterans. Without veterans, there would be no America.
Veterans, thank you for your service to your country.
posted on 12/19/2002 7:35:38 AM PST
LOL! I have plans to post The battle of Trenton too.
Wanna see if we can combine them?
posted on 12/19/2002 7:37:03 AM PST
Great thread, SAM.
Bet some of these guys were there:
7th Bomb Wing, Dyess AFB, TX. Currently flying the B1-B. Motto translated is "Death From Above."
Sure. What do you have in mind?
posted on 12/19/2002 7:38:38 AM PST
Beginning April 13, 1965, the 7th deployed its forces to the Pacific area in support of combat operations in Southeast Asia. All wing bombers and tankers, along with aircrews and some support personnel, deployed by the end of May. A B-52 squadron from a different wing was temporarily assigned to Carswell to maintain a bomber capability. However, by August 1965, the remaining aircraft and people were deployed to Southeast Asia, leaving only a support cadre to operate Carswell AFB. The wings headquarters was non-operational until the bombers; aircrews and support personnel began returning in December. The 7th continued to support combat operations in Southeast Asia during the remainder of the conflict and into 1975, but on a reduced scale, except for the period Sept. 1, 1969 to March 28, 1970, when most wing resources were required overseas and only a small cadre remained at home. During the Vietnam conflict, the wing was awarded two Air Force Outstanding Unit Awards, an Air Force Outstanding Unit Award with Valor, and the Republic of Vietnam Gallantry Cross with Palm.
In 1972, the wing conducted B-52D consolidated training for the Strategic Air Command as well as replacement training, combat crew training and flight training to novice crews. Beginning in June 1974, the wing also conducted B-52 and KC-135 Central Flight Instructor Courses.
posted on 12/19/2002 7:40:14 AM PST
Howdy, AntiJen, how are things at the Foxhole?
Bump for the Foxhole.
posted on 12/19/2002 7:42:35 AM PST
Good Morning Squantos
posted on 12/19/2002 7:46:33 AM PST
Thanks for the ping. I have been swamped at work with travel & meetings. I really appreciate your keeping me on your list eventho I seldom post.
A huge thanks to our Vets.
To: All; SAMWolf; AntiJen; MistyCA; Victoria Delsoul; MeeknMing; Johnny Gage; Aeronaut; HiJinx; ...
I think I have pictures of F-4s in Tim's book I'm giving him for Christmas. (I decided I would let him lable the planes. LOL). Thank you for the thread.
Good morning Vets. Have a wonderful day everyone
<-------click on the December sunrise
To: All; SAMWolf; MistyCA
"She thinks we're heroes."
So do many others! Here's a special dedication to all the men and women who ever served in our country's armed forces, and the men and women in uniform today!
"Hero" by Mariah Carey
"When you feel like hope is gone
Look inside you and be strong
And you'll finally see the truth
That a hero lies in you."
posted on 12/19/2002 8:00:00 AM PST
To: HighRoadToChina; SAMWolf
Thanks for your compliment, but it really should be directed to Sam, who did the work in putting the information together. I assisted with making it look pretty. ;-) I'm glad you enjoy the Foxhole! Visit us daily.
posted on 12/19/2002 8:06:27 AM PST
To: Iowa Granny
I'm glad you were able to post today. It's great to see you here! I'll keep you on the Foxhole ping list as long as you want to be on it! Thanks so much for your support of our Veterans!
posted on 12/19/2002 8:17:10 AM PST
If you want on or off the Western Civilization Military History ping list, please let me know.
Please include me. Thanks...
posted on 12/19/2002 8:19:08 AM PST
Morning Jen, Thanks for the ping and a great thread
posted on 12/19/2002 8:19:34 AM PST
Good morning SB.
posted on 12/19/2002 8:20:11 AM PST
I remember back in 85 we had a major base clean up on Andersen AFB Guam. We walked these aicraft reventments picking up any debris missed by the sweepers. There were plenty of empty aircraft parking spaces. Many hadn't had any type of aircraft on them since Linebacker II. You couldn't look over the flightline without thinking of all of the brave men and planes, some that never came back. One of the rows was supposedly haunted.
I read that during Linebacker II some NVA ( North Vietnamese Army) units were completly wiped out. No one survived and many others were painfully short of manpower after the B-52 raids. During the fall of Saigon in 1975, the North Vietnamese leaders greatest fear was that the B-52's would return.
Thanks for the Dionne Warwick.....
On This Day In History
Birthdates which occurred on December 19:
1036 Su Tung-p'o China, poet/essayist/painter/calligrapher
1498 Andreas Osiander Germany, Protestant Reformation theologist
1676 Louis-Nicholas Clerambault Paris France, composer/organist
1683 Philip V Versailles France, King of Spain (1700-24, 24-46)
1723 Susanne K von Klettenberg German friend of Goethes mother
1744 Jacobus J Cramer priest of Holland/Zealand/West-Friesland
1753 John Taylor Virginia, philosopher (Jeffersonian Democracy)
1778 Marie-Thérèse-Charlotte daughter of King Louis XVI & Marie-Antoinette
1779 Auguste-Gaspard-Louis Desnoyers Paris France, engraver
1783 Charles-Julien Brianchon France, mathematician (Brianchon's theorem)
1790 Sir William Parry England, Arctic explorer
1792 [Andries] Hendrik Potgieter Cape Colony, settled Transvaal
1796 Manuel Breton de los Herreros Quel Spain, poet/comic playwright
1797 Josef Theodor Krov composer
1809 Pierre-Joseph van Beneden Belgium, paleontologist (life cycle of tapeworms)
1813 Thomas Andrews Belfast Ireland, chemist/physicist (ozone)
1814 Edwin M[cMasters] Stanton Ohio, US Secretary of War (1861-65)
1817 James Jay Archer Brigadier-General (Confederate Army) died in 1864
1819 James Clifford Veatch Bvt Major General (Union volunteers), died in 1895
1821 Mary Ashton Livermore American reformer/women's suffrage leader
1824 Hercules Robinson Ireland, South Africa Commissioner (1880-89, 1895-97)
1825 George Frederick Bristow composer
1831 Princess Bernice Pauahi Bishop Hawaii
1832 John Kirk Barry Scotland, Dr/companion to explorer David Livingstone
1836 Maria L Sanford pioneer educator (PTA)
1837 John Carpenter Carter Brigadier-General (Confederate Army), died in 1864
1849 Henry Clay Frick Pennsylvania, built world's largest coke & steel operation
1852 A[lbert] A Michelson Strelno Prussia, US physicist (Nobel 1907)
1861 Constance [Clara] Garnett Brighton England, Russian-English translator
1861 Italo Svevo Trieste Austria, Italian novelist (La Coscienza di Zeno)
1864 Adolf Sandberger composer
1865 Hermann Hirt Magdeburg Prussia, linguist (Indo-European Grammar)
1865 Minnie Maddern Fiske New Orleans LA, stage actress (Henrik Ibsen's plays)
1865 Tikhon Toropets Pskov Russia, patriarch of Russian Orthodox/saint
1869 Eduard Hermann Coburg Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, German linguist (Homer)
1875 Carter G Woodson New Canton VA, American historian (black studies)
1876 Carlo Gatti composer
1878 Anton Lajovic composer
1879 Beals C Wright tennis champion (US Open-1905)
1879 Otto Emanuel Olsson composer
1880 Nemesio Otano y Eugenio composer
1882 Walter Braunfels composer
1883 [Francis] Barry Byrne Chicago IL, architect
1883 Louis Davids [Simon David] Dutch cabaret performer/chorus performer
1884 Antonín Zápotocky premier/President of Czechoslovakia
1884 Ferdinando Liuzzi composer
1885 F S Flint London England, translator/poet (imagist movement)
1888 Fritz Reiner Budapest Hungary, conductor (Pittsburgh Symphony 1938-48)
1890 Klaas Schilder Dutch theologist/vicar (Occupied Territory)
1891 Edward Bernard Andre Maria Raczynski Poland, president-in-exile (1979-86)
1893 Harry Blomberg Swedish author (Mäster Jacob)
1894 Ford C Frick baseball commissioner (1951-65)
1894 Paul Dessau Hamburg Germany, composer/conducter (Berlin, 1925-33)
1894 Yoshida Isoya Tokyo Japan, architect (modern sukiya style)
1895 Ingeborg Refling-Hagen Norwegian author/poet (Loke Saar Havre)
1895 Maurice Roelants Belgian author (Jazz Player)
1896 John Seldon Whale theologian
1897 Louis Darquier de Pellepoix France, anti-Semite/nazi collaborator
19-- Jourdan Fremin New Orleans LA, actress (At Ease)
19-- Klaus Eichstadt rocker (Ugly Kid Joe-Mad Man, Too Bad)
19-- Maria Martha Serra Lima Buenos Aires Argentina, entertainer
1901 Oliver [Hazard Perry] La Farge New York NY, anthropologist/novelist (Laughing Boy)
1901 Vitorino Nemésio Portuguese author (Presença)
1902 Sir Ralph Richardson England, actor (David Copperfield, Dr Zhivago, Anna Karenina)
1902 Leonard Hirsch British violinist/orchestra leader (RAF Symphony Orchestra)
1903 Cyril Dean Darlington England, biologist (hereditary mechanisms)
1903 George Davis Snell Bradford MA, geneticist (H-2 gene)
1903 Theo Harych writer
1905 Charles Robert Owen Medley dancer/choreographer
1906 H Allen Smith Illinois, humorist/author (Armchair Detective, Low Man on the Totem Pole, Rhubarb)
1906 Leonid Ilyich Brezhnev Ukraine, 1st Secretary of the Community Party/President of the USSR (1964-82)
1910 Jean Genet Paris France, novelist/dramatist (The Blacks)
1910 Jose Lezama Lima Havana Cuba, poet/novelist
1915 Edith Piaf [E Giovanna Gassion] Paris France, chanteuse (Little Sparrow)
1916 Hal Hastings New York NY, orchestra leader (Chevrolet on Broadway)
1916 Adriaan van der Veen Dutch writer (Sister at Sea)
1916 Mervyn Wallace cricketer (13 Tests for New Zealand, latterly as captain)
1917 Graham Sharp ice skater
1920 David Susskind New York NY, TV host (Open End, David Susskind Show)
1920 Jimmy Dickens Bolt WV, country singer (Grand Ole Opry)
1920 Ragnild Hveger Denmark, 400 meter swimmer (Olympics-silver-1936)
1921 Ludvik Podest composer
1922 Walter Höllerer writer
1923 Luigi Innocenti designer
1924 Edmund Purdom England, actor (Asissi Underground, Pieces)
1924 Peter Prowtiny English real estate developer/multi-millionaire
1925 Tankred Torst writer
1926 Bobby Layne NFL QB (Detroit Lions)
1926 Jeanne Kirkpatrick US ambassador to UN
1928 Galt MacDermot Montréal Canada, composer (Letting Down My Hair)
1928 Michael Hurd composer
1929 Herman T M Lauxtermann Dutch 2nd chamber member (VVD)
1933 Cicely Tyson Harlem NY, actress (Roots, Autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman)
1933 James Booth London England, actor/writer (Zulu, Robbery, Revenge)
1934 Al Kaline Baltimore MD, Hall of Fame outfielder (Detroit Tigers/American League bat champion 1955)
1934 Rudi Carrell [Rudolf W Kesselman] Dutch showmaster
1938 Barbara Steele Trenton Wirrall England, actress (Came from Within)
1940 Phil Ochs El Paso TX, anti-war folk singer (Joe Hill, War is Over)
1941 Maurice White Memphis TN, rock vocalist (Earth, Wind & Fire-Spirit)
1942 Jean-Patric Manchette thriller writer
1943 William De Vries Brooklyn NY, surgeon-inventor (Symbion artifical heart)
1944 Tim Reid Norfolk VA, comedian (Venus Flytrap-WKRP, Frank's Place)
1944 Zal Yanovsky rock guitarist (Lovin' Spoonful-Do You Believe in Magic)
1944 Alvin Lee Nottingham England, rock vocals/guitarist (10 Years After)
1944 Richard Leakey anthropologist
1945 Elaine Joyce Cleveland OH, actress (City of Angels, Mr Merlin)
1945 John McEuen rocker (Nitty Gritty Dirt Band)
1946 Marianne Faithfull Hampstead England, singer (Money, As Tears Go By)
1946 Robert Urich Toronto OH, actor (SWAT, Spenser for Hire, Vega$)
1947 Janie Fricke South Whitley IN, country singer (It Ain't Easy Bein' Easy)
1949 Claudia A Kolb US, 200 meter breast stroke swimmer (Olympics-silver-1964)
1949 Lenny White rocker
1951 Fred W Leslie Ancon Panama, PhD/astronaut (STS 73)
1953 Peter McEwan cricketer (New Zealand batsman early 80's)
1955 Susil Fernando cricketer (5 Tests for Sri Lanka 1983)
1956 Alice Barrett New York NY, actress (Frankie Frame-Another World)
1957 Doug Johnson rock keyboardist (Loverboy-Get Lucky)
1957 Kevin McHale NBA forward (Boston Celtics)
1957 Liz Glazowski Chicago IL, playmate (April, 1980)
1958 Limahl British rocker (Kajagoogoo-Too Shy)
1958 Iqbal Sikander cricketer (Pakistan leg-spinner 1992 World Cup)
1958 Rick Pearson Marianna FL, Nike golfer (1990 Yuma Open)
1959 Edward Metgod Dutch soccer goalie (Haarlem, Sparta)
1959 Kathryn "Furu" Carpenter Marshall MI, fencer-epee (Olympics-96)
1960 Daryl Hannah Chicago IL, actress (Splash)
1960 Mike Lookinland Mount Pleasant UT, actor (Bobby-Brady Bunch)
1961 Reggie White NFL defensive end (Green Bay Packers-Superbowl 31)
1962 Bettina Huebers Hamburg German Federal Republic, illegitimate daughter of Paul McCartney
1962 Charith Senanayake cricketer (played for Sri Lanka vs New Zealand 1991)
1963 Chris Greatrex LPGA golfer (1995 Fielcrest Cannon Classic-71st)
1963 Jennifer Beals Chicago IL, actress (Flashdance, Bride)
1963 Karen Bliss-Livingston Quakertown PA, cyclist (Olympics-96)
1964 Beatrice Dalle Breast France, actress (Betty Blue, Sabbath)
1964 Arvydas Sabonis NBA center (Portland Trailblazers)
1964 Lorie Kane Prince Edward Island Canada, LPGA golfer (du Maurier Ltd-1994, 95)
1964 Mike Fetters Van Nuys CA, pitcher (Milwaukee Brewers)
1964 Randall McDaniel NFL guard (Minnesota Vikings)
1965 Chuckii Booker rocker
1965 Jessica Steen Toronto Ontario, actress (Earth II, Homefront, Trial & Error)
1966 Robert MacNaughton New York NY, actor (ET)
1966 Alberto "La Bomba" Tomba Italian skier (Olympics-gold-1988, 92)
1966 Courtney Griffin CFL defensive back (Winnipeg Blue Bombers)
1966 Eric Weinrich Roanoke, NHL defenseman (Chicago Blackhawks)
1966 Monique Oliver Malibu CA, WPVA volleyballer (US Open-4th-1994)
1966 Rajesh Chauhan cricketer (Indian off-spinner since 1993)
1966 Roberto Beam soccer player (Vitesse/MVV)
1967 Doug Johns South Bend IN, pitcher (Oakland A's)
1968 Jennifer Devine Portland OR, rower (Olympics-96)
1969 Kristy Swanson actress (Knots Landing, Buffy Vampire Slayer)
1969 Michael Bates NFL wide receiver (Cleveland Browns, Carolina Panthers)
1969 Mike Alexander WLAF corner (Rhein Fire)
1969 Nayan Mongia cricketer (Indian Test batsman-wicketkeeper 1994- )
1969 Santana Dotson NFL defensive tackle (Green Bay Packers-Superbowl 31)
1969 Scott Pearson Cornwall, NHL left wing (Buffalo Sabres)
1969 Tom Gugliotta NBA forward (Minnesota Timberwolves)
1970 Zac Foley rock bassist (EMF-Unbelievable)
1970 Jon Cleveland Fresno CA, Canadian 100 meter/200 meter swimmer (Olympics-bronze-92, 96)
1970 Robert Lang Teplice Czechoslovakia, NHL forward (Team Czechoslovakia Representative, Los Angeles)
1970 Wendy Miles Australia, golfer (1993 T77 Alpine Australian Ladies Masters)
1971 Amy Locane Trenton NJ, actress (Andrea-Spencer, Sandy-Melrose Place)
1971 Jen[nifer] Dore Kearny NJ, rower (Olympics-4th-96)
1971 Mike Groh WLAF quarterback (Rhein Fire)
1972 Alyssa Jane Milano Brooklyn NY, actress (Samantha-Who's the Boss, Jennifer-Melrose Place, Phoebe-Charmed)
1972 Warren Sapp NFL defensive tackle (Tampa Bay Buccaneers)
1972 Waverly Jackson DL (Carolina Panthers)
1973 Kebu Stewart NBA forward (Philadelphia 76ers)
1974 Bryant Westbrook cornerback (Detroit Lions)
1974 Jake Plummer quarterback (Arizona Cardinals)
1974 Ricky Ponting cricketer (prodigious Tasmania batsman, Australia 1995)
1975 Casual [Jon Owens] rapper
1975 Kristin Folkl St Louis MO, volleyball outside hitter (alternate-Olympics-96)
1977 Maria Joana Parizotto Miss Universe-Brazil (1996)
1978 Lauren Petty Miss New Jersey Teen USA (1997)
1981 Stevie Ficker Miss Oregon Teen USA (1997)
1996 Paige Speakman England, born 19 days before her twin sister
4913 William C De Vries surgeon/inventor (artificial heart)
Deaths which occurred on December 19:
0401 Anastasius I Bishop of Rome (399-401), dies
1370 Urban V [Guillaume de Grimoard] 1st Avignon Pope (1362-70), dies
1614 Melchior Bischoff composer, dies at 67
1741 Vitus J Bering Dutch navigator/explorer, dies
1749 Francesco Antonio Bonporti composer, dies at 76
1798 Charles-Joseph Panckoucke publisher (Moniteur Universel), dies at 62
1800 Georg Peter Weimar composer, dies at 66
1804 Mary Bright British PM Rockingham, dies
1810 Johann Heinrich Egli composer, dies at 68
1815 Michel Woldemar composer, dies at 65
1815 Robert Hudson composer, dies at 83
1823 Nicolas-Joseph Hullmandel composer, dies at 67
1848 Adam van Duyn governor of South Holland, dies at 77
1851 J M William Turner British painter (Rain, Steam & Speed), dies at 76
1867 Jean-Georges Kastner composer, dies at 57
1914 Johann F Ritter von Schulte German catholic lawyer, dies at 87
1915 Alois Alzheimer German neurologist (first described Alzheimer's Disease), dies at 51
1925 Jose Ignacio Quinton composer, dies at 44
1930 Johnny Douglas cricketer (soccer int, boxing gold medal), drowns
1939 Eric Fogg composer, dies at 36
1939 Karl Wagenfeld Low German writer (Lucifer, Death & Devil), dies at 70
1939 Willem Benoy Flemish actor/director (The White), dies at 57
1941 L M Dovator Russian general, dies in battle
1951 Barton Yarbrough actor (Dragnet), dies at 51
1952 Harry Makepeace cricketer (cricket & soccer international for England), dies
1953 Robert A Millikan US physicist (Nobel 1923), dies at 85
1953 Rudolf Leonhard writer, dies
1957 John W Van Druten US stage/screenwriter (I Remember Mama), dies at 56
1959 Walter Williams claimed to be last survivor of Civil War, dies at 117
1966 Ehm Welk writer, dies at 82
1967 Alfred Courtens Belgian sculptor, dies at 78
1968 Norman Thomas founder (ACLU)/Socialist Party (1926-55), dies at 84
1977 Nellie Taylor Ross 1st woman governor, dies at 101
1982 Jean-Jacques Grunenwald French organist/composer, dies at 71
1982 Lawrence Collingwood composer, dies at 95
1983 Raymond Massey actor (Dr Gillespie-Dr Kildaire), dies at 87
1984 Michel Magne composer, dies at 54
1989 Dorothea "Stella" Gibbons English journalist/author, dies at 87
1990 Basil Henson actor (Change Partners), dies of stroke at 71
1991 Ernest K Gann US adventure novelist, dies at 81
1991 Paul Maxwell actor (City of Fear, Freedom to Die), dies at 70
1993 Anthonius "Ton" Kors writer (Time of Anton de Lange), dies at 47
1993 Antoon Veerman Dutch ARP Assistant Secretary of Education (1973-75), dies at 77
1993 Michael Clarke drummer (Byrds), dies of liver failure at 49
1994 Noel Pointer jazz violinist, dies at 39
1995 Dame Ruth Nita Barrow governor-General of Barbados, dies at 79
1995 Harold Watkinson politician/businessman, dies at 85
1995 Janet Wilder stuntwoman, dies at 29
1996 Marcello Mastroiani actor (8½, Assassin, Family Diary), dies at 72
1996 Ronald Howard actor (Hunting Party, Koroshi), dies at 78
1996 Yuli Borisovich Khariton scientist, dies at 82
1997 David Norman Schramm physicist, dies at 52
1997 Masaru Ibuka co-founder (Sony Corp), dies at 89
1998 Mel Fisher underwater film maker, dies from bladder cancer at 76
On this day...
0401 St Anastasius I ends his reign as Catholic Pope
1055 Seldjuken under Toghril Beg occupy Baghdad
1154 King Henry II of England crowned
1551 Dutch west coast hit by hurricane
1562 Battle at Dreux: Anne de Montmorency & huguenots under Condé captured
1686 Robinson Crusoe leaves his island after 28 years (as per Defoe)
1688 King James II's wife & son flee to France
1696 Jean-François Regnard's "Le Joueur" premieres in Paris
1732 Benjamin Franklin (under the name Richard Saunders) begins publication of "Poor Richard's Almanack"
1776 Thomas Paine published his 1st "American Crisis" essay, in which he wrote, "These are the times that try men's souls"
1777 Washington settles his troops at Valley Forge PA for the winter
1783 English government of Pitt Jr forms
1788 Chinese troops occupy capital Thang Long Vietnam
1795 1st state appropriation of money for road building, Kentucky
1823 Georgia passes 1st US state birth registration law
1828 South Carolina declares the right of states to nullify federal laws
1835 HMS Beagle/Charles Darwin approaches New Zealand
1842 US recognizes independence of Hawaii
1843 Charles Dickens publishes "A Christmas Carol" in England
1854 Allen Wilson of Connecticut patents sewing machine to sew curving seams
1859 Grading started for Market Street RR
1861 Battle of Black Water
1862 Skirmish at Jackson/Salem Church TN (80 casualties)
1867 Victims of "Angola Horror" burned to death (Angola NY)
1871 Albert L Jones (New York NY), patents corrugated paper
1881 Jules Massenet's opera "Hérodiade" is produced (Brussels)
1884 Italy recognizes King Leopold II's Congo Free State
1887 Jake Kilrain & Jem Smith fight 106 round bare knuckle draw
1888 Stanley's expedition reaches Fort Bodo, East-Africa
1889 Bishop Museum founded in Hawaii
1890 Start of Sherlock Holmes "The Adventure of The Beryl Coronet" (BG)
1891 1st Negro Catholic priest ordained in US, Charles Uncles, Baltimore
1891 Canadian Rugby Union forms
1894 Cricket day 5 1T Australia vs England England 437 all out, Australia need 177 are 2-113
1903 Williamsburg suspension bridge opens between Brooklyn & Manhattan
1904 The Dawson City (Yukon) hockey team begins 9 day walk to get a boat to Seattle to catch a train to Ottawa to play in the Stanley Cup on January 13 1905
1907 239 workers die in a coal mine explosion in Jacobs Creek PA
1907 Gas explosion at Jacobs Creek PA coal mine kills 239
1910 1st city ordinance requiring white & black residential areas (Baltimore)
1910 Rayon 1st commercially produced, Marcus Hook PA
1913 Jack Johnson fights Jim Johnson to a draw in 10 for hw boxing title
1916 Suriname Bauxite Company forms in Paramaribo
1917 1st NHL game played on artificial ice (Toronto)
1917 Québec Bulldogs play their 1st professional hockey game
1918 Robert Ripley began his "Believe It or Not" column (New York Globe)
1919 American Meteorological Society found
1920 1st US indoor curling rink opens (Brookline MA)
1922 Mrs Theres Vaughn, 24, confessed in court to being married 62 times
1924 Test Cricket debut of Bill Ponsford, who scored 110 in 1st innings
1928 1st autogiro (predecessor of helicopter) flight in US
1930 James Weldon Johnson resigns as executive secretary of NAACP
1931 Bradman scores 112 Australia vs South Africa at cricket SCG
1931 Joseph A Lyons (C) becomes premier of Australia
1932 British Broadcasting Corp begins transmitting overseas
1933 Electric Home & Farm Authority Inc, authorized
1934 Japan agress to fleet treaty of 1922 & 1930
1939 Russian air & ground attack against Finnish positions near Summa
1941 German submarine U-574 sinks
1941 Hitler takes complete command of German Army
1941 US Office of Censorship created to control info pertaining to WWII
1943 Military coup in Bolivia
1945 Austrian Republic re-establishes
1945 Jean Giraudoux' "La Folle de Chaillot" premieres in Paris
1946 War breaks out in Indochina as Ho Chi Minh attacks French in Hanoi
1946 Noël Coward's musical "Pacific 1860" premieres in London
1948 8th largest snowfall in NYC history (15.3")
1948 Cleveland Browns beats Buffalo Bills 49-7 in AAFC championship game
1948 Philadelphia Eagles shutout Chicago Cardinals 7-0 in NFL championship game
1948 2nd political action of Java/Sumatra
1949 Luxury passenger ship Aquitania demolished in Garelock Scotland
1949 WJW TV channel 8 in Cleveland OH (CBS) begins broadcasting
1950 General Eisenhower named NATO commander
1950 Tibet's Dalai Lama flees Chinese invasion
1951 Nazi General Christiansen leaves Netherlands
1952 Queen Juliana unveals statue "Docker"
1953 KFYR TV channel 5 in Bismarck ND (NBC/ABC) begins broadcasting
1955 Carl Perkins records "Blue Suede Shoes"
1957 "The Music Man", starring Robert Preston, opens at Majestic Theater NYC for 1375 performances
1958 1st radio broadcast from space (President Eisenhower voice "To all mankind, America's wish for Peace on Earth & Good Will to Men Everywhere")
1959 1st Liberty Bowl game-Penn State beats Alabama 7-0
1960 Fire aboard USS Constellation, under construction in Brooklyn (50 die)
1960 Mercury-Redstone 1A reaches 210 km in test flight
1960 Frank Sinatra's 1st session with Reprise Records (Ring-A-Ding-Ding)
1961 British government begins decimal coin system
1961 Indonesian President Sukarno proclaims general mobilization
1962 Nyasaland secedes from Rhodesia & Nyasaland
1962 Street signs in Golden Gate Park approved by Park Commission
1962 Transit 5A1, 1st operational navigational satellite, launched
1963 Zanzibar becomes independent from UK
1965 French President De Gaulle re-elected (Mitterrand gets 45%)
1968 WCWB (now WMGT) TV channel 41 in Macon GA (NBC) begins broadcasting
1969 Beatle's 7th Christmas album is released
1971 NASA launches Intelsat 4 F-3 for COMSAT Corp
1971 "Inner City" opens at Barrymore Theater NYC for 97 performances
1971 CBS airs "Homecoming - A Christmas Story" (introducing the Waltons)
1971 Stanley Kubrick's X-rated "A Clockwork Orange" premieres
1972 Apollo 17 (last of Apollo Moon landing series) returns to Earth
1973 "Molly" closes at Alvin Theater NYC after 68 performances
1973 Grenada adopts constitution
1974 Dave Kryskow scores Washington Capitals 1st NHL shorthanded goal
1974 Nelson A Rockefeller sworn-in as the 41st Vice-President
1974 "The Man With the Golden Gun" premieres in US
1975 John Paul Stevens becomes a Supreme Court Justice
1975 Ron Wood joined the Rolling Stones
1976 Jo Ann Washam/Chi Chi Rodriguez win Pepsi-Cola Mixed Team Golf Championship
1976 John Lever takes 7-46 in 1st Test Cricket innings, vs India Delhi
1976 Piper Cherokee crashes into Baltimore Memorial Stadium upper stands, 10 minutes after Colts lose 40-14 to Steelers; No one seriously hurt
1976 President Brezhnev receives his 5th Lenin order
1977 Dutch government of Van Agt/Wiegel forms
1978 France performs nuclear test
1978 Indira Gandhi ambushed in India
1980 Anguilla becomes a British dependency separate from St Kitts
1980 Iran requests $24 billion in US guarantees to free hostages
1980 Mutual Broadcasting cancels Sears Radio Theater
1984 Fire at the Wilberg Mine in central Utah killed 27 people
1984 Scotty Bowman becomes NHL's all time winningest coach
1984 China People's Republic performs nuclear test at Lop Nor People's Rebublic of China
1984 China People's Republic Premier Zhao Ziyang & Margaret Thatcher sign Hong Kong Treaty
1984 UK signs agreement with China to return Hong Kong to China in 1997
1984 Wayne Gretzky, 23, is 18th & youngest NHL-er to score 1,000 points
1985 STS 61-C scrubbed at T -13 seconds because of SRB auxiliary power problem
1985 "Wind in the Willows" opens at Nederlander Theater NYC for 4 performances
1985 Mary Lund is 1st woman to receive a Jarvik VII artificial heart
1986 USSR frees dissident Andrei Sakharov from internal exile
1986 Jack Morris agrees to salary arbitration with former team Tigers & accuses owners of collusion against free agency
1986 Michael Sergio, who parachuted into Shea Stadium during game 6 of the World Series, sentenced to 100 hours of community service & fined $500
1987 Bruins' Linseman & Blues' Doug Gilmore score goals, 2 seconds apart
1987 Gari Kasparov becomes world chess champion
1988 NASA unveils plans for lunar colony & manned missions to Mars
1988 Oklahoma's College football team gets 3 year probation
1988 Unexploded WWII bomb found in Frankfurt, Germany-5,000 evacuated
1989 American Airlines purchases Eastern Airline's Latin American route
1989 Larry Bird (Celtics) begins NBA free throw streak of 71 games
1991 Boris Yeltsin takes control of Kremlin
1991 New York Yankee pitcher Steve Howe arrested for cocaine possession
1991 "Christmas Carol" opens at Eugene O'Neill Theater NYC for 14 performances
1993 "Red Shoes" closes at Gershwin Theater NYC after 5 performances
1993 Guinee General Lansana re-elected president
1995 Queen Elizabeth askes Prince Charles & Diana to divorce
1996 "Once Upon a Matress" opens at Broadhurst NYC for 187 performances
1997 MTV drops video "Smack My Bitch Up" by Prodigy
Note: Some Holidays are only applicable on a given "day of the week"
Hawaii : Princess Bernice Pauahi Bishop's Birthday
World : Underdog Day - - - - - ( Friday )
Orthodox : Feast of St Nicholas the Wonderworker
1808 Birth of Horatius Bonar, Scottish clergyman and poet. He authored several missionary biographies and penned over 600 hymns, including "I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say."
1855 Birth of William Henry Draper, Anglican clergyman and hymnwriter. His words to "All Creatures of Our God and King" are an English translation of a Latin text believed to have been penned by St. Francis of Assisi.
1860 Birth of Frank E. Graeff, American Methodist clergyman. Well_known for his interest in children's ministry and for his storytelling abilities, Graeff also authored over 200 hymns, including "Does Jesus Care?"
1944 Birth of Andrew Robert Culverwell, American sacred music songwriter. This contemporary music artist has written such popular Christian songs as "Born Again" and "Come On, Ring Those Bells."
1965 American missionary and apologist Francis Schaeffer wrote in a letter: 'God has given us rules not because He is arbitrary, but because the rules...are fixed in His own character... Thus, when we sin we break the law of God...in the direction of destroying what we really are.'
Thought for the day :
" To save one life is better than to build a seven story pagoda. "
posted on 12/19/2002 8:26:02 AM PST
Hi Mo1, so good to see you in the Foxhole. Thanks for bringing us some holiday cheer.
posted on 12/19/2002 8:45:37 AM PST
What a beautiful sunrise. I'm so glad you post pictures of sunrises, because you know that I'm not an early riser and usually don't see the sun come up! hahaha Loved the song too. It's very appropriate, I think, for our Foxhole because I know so many people - like you - pray regularly for our troops and our veterans. Have a wonderful day Spookie!
posted on 12/19/2002 8:49:49 AM PST
Good morning decided drop in on Foxhole
OHHHHH did I drop a bomb on Saddam
Well report off Reuters is reporting that IDF accidently whack 12 year old girl near Gaza strip who was throwing rocks at tanks
To: E.G.C.; Peaches
Good morning faithful Foxhole bumpers! ;-) It's a great day in the Foxhole - for me at least! I am finished with school for a couple weeks, so I am relaxing and enjoying not having to fill my brain with numbers and equations! hahahaha (I hate math...)
posted on 12/19/2002 8:53:20 AM PST
Good morning Seven! Have you just declared war on Saddam? hahahaha
Ohhhh, so sad about the girl who was accidently killed. Dang!
posted on 12/19/2002 8:55:39 AM PST
YUP I think I did LOLOL!
Saddam is not amused with this American Woman
Hey Saddam for the record you going meet our Stranger of the Night very soon dude it not Frank Sinatra OKAY
Well another report off BBC wire Russia fav KGB agent Illya errr I mean Putin said he going be one BUSY KGB agent
First in May of 2003 he going back to his former hood St. Petersburg commerate the 300 annivesrary of Founding of the city by Bugsy Siegel of Russia Tsars Peter the Great
Also he claiming he going to Crawford TX next year see Dubya at ranch
So Texans on Freeper Foxhole if you see wacky KGB agent in Texas bar ordering Vodka don't bother it is Vlad
You hate math? You? Tell us it isn't so!!!!
So, anyway, do you think you passed it this time?
(Not trying to be mean or rude, just genuinely concerned and curious...the very last class I took to get my BA was College Algebra...I never did figure out when or where the trains from Chicago and Philadelphia met!)
How'd the Perl Scripting go?
posted on 12/19/2002 9:09:07 AM PST
To: AntiJen; SevenofNine
Y'know, I'm sad about the little girl, too. But I'm not sure it's for the same reasons you're probably thinking.
I think it is a downright tragic shame that a whole generation is growing up with such hatred that they'll fight tanks with rocks. Little girls aren't supposed to be warriors (okay, I'm a chauvinist of sorts). They certainly shouldn't be placing themselves in a position to get whacked by the IDF, or any other military force. And people like Arafat and Saddam, who exhort their people to fight us, are the lowest of the low. I have more respect for pond scum or mud-sucking leeches than that pair of reprobates.
Whew. Deep breath. Okay, I feel better now!
posted on 12/19/2002 9:17:04 AM PST
The Rose Garden
Task Force Delta
RTAB Nam Phong, Thailand
Operation Linebacker II, 1972 - 1973
posted on 12/19/2002 9:21:55 AM PST
To: HiJinx; RadioAstronomer
Dang it HiJinx, now everybody knows that I flunked that stinkin' square-filler math class before! (I'm teasing, I really don't mind.) But I passed that sucker this quarter with the not-so-outstanding grade of 'C', but HOORAY, I don't have to take it ever again!!!
One of the test's word problems was about finding the equation for a radio telescope antenna dish that has a circumference of X and a vertex of Y. I didn't even attempt that one! But I was thinking, Where is RA when I need him? hahahaha
posted on 12/19/2002 9:29:00 AM PST
PS - I did learn something in my Perl class that was very useful to me. I learned how to modify the data that the browser sends to a server for processing. So... I modified the Subject data in links I created for people to send freepmail to me regarding the Foxhole ping list. Cool, huh? I made two links with different subjects. One subject line is "Remove Me From FReeper Foxhole Ping List" and anyone can click that and send me a blank freepmail to be removed from the ping list. The other link has "Comments" in the subject line, so I know to read that freepmail. It saves me time in updating the ping list if I don't have to open every freepmail from people who just want to be taken off the ping list.
posted on 12/19/2002 9:45:42 AM PST
Thanks for sharing those patches. I enjoy seeing them from different units and services and my hubby has thousands in his patch collection. Did you serve in VMGR-152?
posted on 12/19/2002 9:53:56 AM PST
Nice Thread Sam. Thanks for the invite. During Linebacker II, I was a young AF Major in USAF Intell at the Pentagon. I had the privilege of briefing the Chief of Staff on the BDA photos from Linebacker II. If I'm not mistaken, I think it was Gen Jack Ryan (three fingers) at the time. Which I could remember the details, but I can't. You guys did a lot more damage than Jane Fonda gave you credit for, however.
posted on 12/19/2002 9:53:56 AM PST
Hello, it's good to see another AF person here. Nice to meet you. I enjoyed visiting your W-04.com site.
posted on 12/19/2002 9:59:19 AM PST
I agree with your rant!
posted on 12/19/2002 10:00:06 AM PST
1776 Thomas Paine published his 1st "American Crisis" essay, in which he wrote, "These are the times that try men's souls"
'These are the times that try mens souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman.'
-- Thomas Paine
posted on 12/19/2002 10:08:14 AM PST
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