From Thread 156:77

I never said that they were irrelevant. If you can show me where I said that I will retract. Until then you are merely putting words in my mouth.

On Thread 154:84 you said, "[D]oesn't the Catholic church allow for different interpretations in certain matters? Certainly most of the different interpretations of Proddies (if you were to be honest with yourself) fall in these areas."

I read(past tense) that as a whitewashing of profound disagreements over major doctrines in the Protestant world. If that was not your intent, I apologize.

There are matters which are open to legitimate discussion and disagreement(i.e. you're example of Genesis 6 below is a good example). But the major schisms in Protestantism is due to profound disagreements on very important doctrines. Doctrines which, IMO, are not open to valid disagreement. What is the nature of Baptism? Lutherans will tell you one thing, Southern Baptists will tell you something quite different. If you tell a Calvinist that parts of TULIP are false, as Armenians do, the Calvinist will tell you that you're smoking crack. It gets to the point that some Calvinists don't even consider Armenians to be Christians. For crying out loud, even "Scripture alone" and "Faith alone", the bedrock doctrines of the Reformation[sic], mean different things to different Protestant churches.

You made the statement that even if there were 2 denominations there would cause for sadness. What if the two denominations came into being over their interpretations of Gen. 6 and the nephilim. Would that be a cause for sadness? You think that any sort of divisions, no matter for what reason, are inherently bad and cause for sadness. I see them as inherent in our human nature.

If those divisions cause a loss of full communion between two groups, then you can bet your bottom dollar that those divisions are inherently bad. If those complete divisions happen over trite issues like the Nephilim, it is worse, IMO than if it happened over major teaching. I also think that blaming divisions as inherent to our fallen nature is simplistic and somewhat of a cop out. It is true up to a point, but looking at the Protestant world, will there ever come a point where you and others will examine and reassess your first principles and see if those principles foster those disagreements and divisions? But, like in AA, you first have to admit that a problem exists before you can do something about it.

The state of affairs in Christendom is not the way Jesus wanted it and yet none dare care it heresy.

Pray for John Paul II

Now, anyone have some Halelujahs to sound out! Praise God. And ya'll have been quoting these verses as authoritative - probably not realizing just how authoritative they are! Peter was in the presence of the petra, but nowhere in the entire NT is he referred to as petra, that is reserved to Jesus - Completly!

This debate can now be put to rest. Hallelujah. Praise God. I'm convinced more than every now. Catholics lose this one. You do christianity proud my brother.

. If you tell a Calvinist that parts of TULIP are false, as Armenians do, the Calvinist will tell you that you're smoking crack.

It goes back to the obvious - Philosophy. Philosophy is not to be elevated to equality with Scripture and has no place in the life of a Christian. Tradition and extrabiblical nonsense cause much the same problems. People doing their own thing - dabbling in philosophies that pervert the truth and add damning doctrines to scripture with no authority whatsoever.

It's one thing to do something that causes your brother to stumble. But many teach doctrines that can send their brothers to Hell in a hurry and Cling to them like it's the last dime they have and money is near impossible to get. Spitting at scriptures that call their beliefs in question they'd rather die and of pride yell 'i'm right' than to admit and correct themselves - saving their brothers in the process.

This is the state of affairs as we find them. Instead of the truth, Men hold to Philosophy, dividing Christianity and destroying flocks over pride and conciet of ideas. Men can read the weather but are completely spiritually blind - not discerning even the basic things of Christ. Elevating to themselves men who seem powerful rather than heeding God who is all powerful. They elevate to themselves Logic and praise the sophists while ridiculing and reviling the true word of the Lord.

My heart weeps and except the days be lengthened, many will die in their sins - guilty of the blood of many thousands they were responsible for misleading. Many more, the mislead and the hard of heart will blindly walk into the abyss. Pride goeth before destruction. Even so, Come quickly Lord Jesus! Come quickly!

This debate can now be put to rest. Hallelujah. Praise God. I'm convinced more than every now. Catholics lose this one. You do christianity proud my brother.

God's word did it.. Just have to bare it down to the level it cannot be disputed for some; but, God's word is the messenger, I'm just trying to let it speak. All praise goes to God, bud. But I'll praise him with you :)

Its goina be pretty hard for them to spin this one!

You know what is really starting to piss me off? The charecterization by you and others(you know who you are)that pretty much everything a Catholic says is "spin".

"Spin" implies that one knows that something is false yet they promote it as truth. This isn't a debate team. We don't try to score points by promoting as true what we know is false. I can assure you, Catholics believe what they say is Truth.

So please, show us some respect and stop implicitly calling us liars.

Pray for John Paul II

While I'm looking for answers to pegleg questions..... Here is another challenge to the catholics if you dare.

1. When were you converted?

2. How were you converted?

3. To what, or to whom were you converted?

4. What do you believe now, that you did not believe before your conversion?

5. What does it mean to be saved?

6. On what scriptural promises do you base your salvation?

7. What does it mean to be born again?

8. Are you sure today that if you die tomorrow, or at any time in the future, you will be in heaven immediately after death?

9. Do you believe that any sinner can be saved who dies without trusting in Jesus Christ alone for the salvation of his soul and forgiveness of his sins?

10. How do you believe that the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ is applied to your soul?

11. Have you told your priest you have been saved?

12. Do you believe you will still go to heaven if you leave the Roman Catholic Church, receive believer's baptism and join a fundamental Bible believing, non-Catholic church?

13.Are you trusting in your work, merits, baptism, confirmation, sacraments, or something besides, OR PLUS, Jesus Christ; and not in Christ and Christ ALONE.

If you have trouble with these you might do some soul searching to make sure your are right, look around at the times we are living in, its getting late boys and girls.

BigMack

I can assure you, Catholics believe what they say is Truth.

I agree that you believe it is true, but truth is truth and false is false, once you have been shown the real truth, you are on your own and can no longer plead "ignorance" of the truth. I guess it's the flip-side of "invincibly ignorant", since the shoe is on the other foot.

You know what is really starting to piss me off? The charecterization by you and others(you know who you are)that pretty much everything a Catholic says is "spin".

My Goodiness!

"Spin" implies that one knows that something is false yet they promote it as truth. This isn't a debate team. We don't try to score points by promoting as true what we know is false. I can assure you, Catholics believe what they say is Truth.

Depends on what the meaning of spin "is"

So please, show us some respect and stop implicitly calling us liars.

I can't say as for you as I have never talked with you or read any of your posts, but others are recieving the same respect they have given us on what we believe.

How long can people on a forum discuss their spiritual practices and principles without competition, denigration and insults?

The charecterization by you and others(you know who you are)that pretty much everything a Catholic says is "spin".

When many of you claw at claims that are unproven and base other claims on those prior, it's difficult not to view it as spin. When guys like Conservative and Proud2b start quoting nonexistant, mythical evidence in defence of something they can't defend any other way, it stinks of spin and deception. I understand where it comes from; but, if ya'll don't overcome it, you'll have much to answer for later. Ya'll don't seem to realize that anyone who is lead astray to any whit based on the things you teach and defend - their blood will be required at your hands by God. You might think seriously about that - very seriously and then reconsider the comments of those that understand this. Nobody intends to harm anyones feelings. But sparing the rod spoils the child and you will not surely die from anyone's chastisement toward correction. We all love you. But, you are responsible for the knowledge.

Until they are proven wrong apparently. Doesn't mean they've lost. One cannot lose when one seeks truth and finds it. And God's word prevails whether anyone believes it or not. People who seek to believe contrary to scripture decieve themselves for the Word of God will judge them in the last day. That comes straight from the Spiritual Rock, Jesus himself. One only loses if one fails to heed the truth. Any Catholics here wish to lose today? The line in the sand is drawn on at least one issue right now. And to steal a line unabashedly from Stormin Norman Schwartzkopf, Jesus "didn't just draw a line in the sand, He buldozed a trench!"

Could you be wrong about anything religious?

Is it possible to discuss with passion as well as respect and courtesy at the same time?

What criteria do you use for determining effective communication? What is your purpose in this discussion?

Man, 3 hrs of prime time have gone by and only 28 posts!

Any body out there? Hello Hello, well I guess I'll pull up my pants and go home. :)

BigMack

Peter was in the presence of the petra, but nowhere in the entire NT is he referred to as petra, that is reserved to Jesus - Completly!

This debate can now be put to rest. Hallelujah. Praise God. I'm convinced more than every now.

As am I. You boys have been smoking Some really GOOD Stuff!

But Seriously Havoc, you been mixing your metaphors again.

If I say to someone your as big as a Rock, it doesn't mean I am referring to that same person if I use the metaphor again.

If if the Rock thing is unclear, it is cleared up in the next verse when Jesus refers to the keys, however.

Hope you didn't dislocate your shoulder or suffer needlessly from all the back patting around here.

I am almost certain I read an "opus" from a poster using your name. I knew it was too good to be true however.

Havoc

You boys have been smoking Some really GOOD Stuff!

Hope you didn't dislocate your shoulder or suffer needlessly from all the back patting around here.

15 Posted on 10/04/2001 20:20:06 PDT by

ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton

See what I mean

BigMack

Could you be wrong about anything religious?

The minute I start leaning on my own understanding and not seeking God and his word I can be wrong about his word just as anyone else can. God usually is quite direct in reminding me to trust in him and wipe the dirt off my face when I stumble on something. But, I don't embrace error and defend it till death. I don't believe in religion, I believe in God and his Son. And as regards being wrong about the religious, anyone can be wrong about it - just by being religious. That's why I don't and will not ever accept philosophy, Logical constructs and tradition as a Christian. None of them have any authority and all introduce the possibility of error - even unto death. I don't play games with my soul or anyone else's.

Is it possible to discuss with passion as well as respect and courtesy at the same time?

One always strives for that. But at the same time, one also admits that Jesus busted some chops to wake people up. And I'm not above it. I strive not to resort to name calling. But, I won't restrain myself from drawing comparisons where they fit if it will wake someone up and make them think. If you had my lurker mail, you might understand I don't give a whit about winning anything with you guys, it's about opening eyes and shining a light on truth. The lurkers are getting it. But like Paul, I work for a living, I don't need their tithes. LOL. I'd rather they find a man of God that teaches the Bible and abstains from all else but the face of God in leading his flock - whatever name is over the door. Men who teach other than God's word are stealing from God and condemning their flock.

What criteria do you use for determining effective communication? What is your purpose in this discussion?

First, The truth is all important. Never sacrifice the truth to or for anything - never. Hand in hand with that is you don't sin to present the truth. If the truth be surrounded by sin, it will whither in the person and become of none effect. And it ends up better that the hearer had never heard it to begin with. Light and darkness can have no communion with one another. Never allow a falsehood to stand uncorrected. These are basic. If you want my debate approach, talk to God - the talent for talk comes from him. I feel like moses when it comes to speaking - inconsequential and not the right man for the job; but, I willingly give it my all to serve my Lord.

My purpose in this discussion is as it always has been, to debate and learn from others and to teach others by as many means as are available to me to do so. My interests are varied and many. My approach to learning is obsessive. So my experience is broad and deep. There isn't much of anything, it seems, that I don't know something about. I make it my business to know all I can on a subject when I face it. I took an interest in archeology and as of now I could sell my book collection on the subject for half price and buy a car. My purpose is to make people winners. If you think winning is easy - you've already lost the battle. I've nothing to gain save glory for God in what I do here. I've no ego to bruise, No mail in form for a plastic 10 cent jesus if you send $5 to my ministry, No specific Group to point anyone at...... The only 'horse' I have in this race is the will of the Lord God. It is my duty to shine the light of truth and I'll shine it come Hell or high water. As a true Christian, I know that if I die and begin to fall in my tracks, the Lord will be faithful to present another to keep the light from hitting the ground and raise it to continue on. The truth will not be shut up. It will not be hidden. It will not be buried, burned or marred. It will not be twisted or abused indefinitely. Abusers of the truth will all be victims of it in the end. This is my message and my testimony. Jesus Christ is Lord. Don't make him angry - You would'nt like him when he's angry :)

I'm still here; but, it seems the other side has taken a major coffee break or something.

As am I. You boys have been smoking Some really GOOD Stuff!

Spirit of God is a wonderful thing. And practically every time you speak, something in me says (full of the devil). I don't quite know what it is. I keep wanting to rebuke you and I feel like I'm holding the clapper in my hand and restraining myself from the Gong. Alas, I just realized I'm not wearing a suit, my hair isn't curly, my lower lip is not wet, and I don't have to put up with you. So, I rebuke you in the name of Jesus. Get thee behind me.

There, I feel better already.