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Despite the denials, this war is rooted in religion
The Times (U.K.) ^ | 11/06/2001 | JONATHAN CLARK

Posted on 11/05/2001 4:08:08 PM PST by Pokey78

The conflict was foreshadowed by the battles of the 16th and 17th centuries

This is not a war of religion. All Western leaders (with the possible exception of the Italian Prime Minister) say so, and the mainstreams of Islam, Judaism and Christianity teach forgiveness and peace. Westerners cite Muslim moderates; but theirs may be an argument already lost, as the massacre of Christians at St Dominic’s Church, Bahawalpur, suggested.

Why, then, insist on an obvious half-truth? We cling to it because the al-Qaeda network reveals some key fissures of Western liberalism: that religion belongs to the realm of private opinion, or represents outdated superstition, or both.

We all knew there were problems with multiculturalism. In Britain, the Left thought the plural society could be made to work by more social services and democratic participation, the Right by more patriotism and family cohesion. How historically shallow these solutions were, Islam unexpectedly shows. Unintentionally, Osama bin Laden reminds Post-Modern Britons that theirs is an indelibly Christian country rather than an ahistorical “community of communities”.

Yet liberal orthodoxy is still “in denial”. Secular pluralism is consistently imposed from Northern Ireland to the Balkans, yet wars of religion have not faded away in the modern world: politicians merely insist on describing them in other terms and applying other remedies. The poor success of these attempts is held to show that the parties to the conflict have not yet grown up. Meanwhile, religious minorities commonly seek to transform their states from within, often in alliance with co-religionists abroad.

More have recently died in conflicts among Muslims than in conflicts between Muslims and Christians, yet Christians have historically participated. However much slaughter was caused since 1789 by secular ideologies, the identification of an enemy as belonging to the wrong race or class was as nothing compared to the perception, widespread in 16th-century Europe, that one’s opponents were predestined to eternal damnation. This tenet caused endless bloodshed.

Queen Elizabeth I’s ministers urged Europe that English Catholics were being executed for their politics, not their religion; but to Rome these two things were so inseparable that Campion, Fawkes and others were revered by their co-religionists as martyrs, not denounced as traitors. Whether young Muslims holding British passports who leave to fight for al-Qaeda fall into a similar category is the sort of problem Britain has seldom faced since; but where liberals shy away from the issue, British Muslims answered it in an opinion poll last weekend, 68 per cent putting their religion first, 14 per cent their country.

We have been here before; and it was intolerant 17th-century Europe, not the liberal Enlightenment that followed, which devised solutions to the problems the Reformation unleashed. Most, including partition (the formula that ended the disastrous Thirty Years’ War in 1648) and “toleration” (the supremacy of one Church and the exclusion from political power of dissenters), offend the modern conscience. Others seem worse, including the suppression of religious minorities and forced conversion. But they were devised by practical statesmen as well informed in theology as ours are in economics. The methods varied from country to country, and determined their subsequent enjoyment of personal liberty.

These formulae for peace were eventually forgotten or dismantled; but religious conflict evolved rather than disappeared. In Christianity as well as Islam, people orthodox in their theology, and politically moderate, can be mobilised for political action by heterodox minorities of extremists using political language (often natural rights based) that sounds plausible to the middle ground. This should not seem strange to Americans, since it is in a nutshell the story of 1776.

The US separated Church and State in 1787 to prevent such conflict, but a threat averted is not a problem understood. Where modern Americans thought they lived in a world made safe for consumerism by being secularised, others overseas interpreted American public culture differently: not self-evident secularity finally acknowledged, but as religion (in this case, Islam) negated, as the Devil. To the religious mind, all things express a religious position, secularism included.

Popular responses show a similar lack of perception. Americans denounce the suicide highjackers as “cowards” or “deranged” (rather than intelligent, courageous religious zealots) and presume that worldwide anti-Americanism is fed by jealousy of Americans’ material wealth (rather than by pietistic rejections of the values which that wealth projects).

Yet liberal, secular societies have liberal, secular equivalents of the idea that those dying in a jihad at once reach paradise: not until Muslim teaching on this point changes, and we respond to religious war better than to call it terrorism, will the problem be solved. If it took moderate Catholics and Calvinists decades to redefine their political theologies, however, the prospects for Islam doing so soon may be poor.

Meanwhile, many 17th-century remedies are being reinvented under the pressure of circumstance. It would still seem unacceptable to say that a Christian society could not tolerate a Muslim minority within it, although many Roman Catholic and Protestant states in Europe were historically forced to conclude that minorities of the other denomination were unacceptably subversive. If al-Qaeda found means to detonate nuclear devices, all the techniques of the 17th century would be seen again. But because our imperfect past has been largely forgotten, these lessons are unlikely to be learnt until it is too late.

The author is the Hall Professor of History at the University of Kansas


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: clashofcivilizatio

1 posted on 11/05/2001 4:08:08 PM PST by Pokey78
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: Pokey78
Let our enemies have a religous war. We will simply attack and kill the people who attack or threaten us for now. We can stay secular as long as we have atrocities such as 911 to point to. I see no need for us to lash out at all muslims, unless they all start trying to kill us. Even though I believe that certain tenants of thier faith are simply incompatible with our civilization.

For them, it is a Holy war, for us, it is a righteous war.

3 posted on 11/05/2001 4:19:00 PM PST by BRK
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To: Pokey78
"Meanwhile, many 17th-century remedies are being reinvented under the pressure of circumstance. ... If al-Qaeda found means to detonate nuclear devices, all the techniques of the 17th century would be seen again. But because our imperfect past has been largely forgotten, these lessons are unlikely to be learnt until it is too late."

Ok, I guess that my 17th century knowledge is a bit lacking here. Can someone fill in the gaps? What are the "remedies" that he is suggesting? Reading between the lines I guess it is mass deportation/extermination of Muslims? Anyone else know what he's driving at?

4 posted on 11/05/2001 4:30:08 PM PST by VoteHarryBrowne2000
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To: Pokey78
We all knew there were problems with multiculturalism. In Britain, the Left thought the plural society could be made to work by more social services and democratic participation, the Right by more patriotism and family cohesion. How historically shallow these solutions were, Islam unexpectedly shows.

Bump.

5 posted on 11/05/2001 4:34:18 PM PST by Dan De Quille
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To: VoteHarryBrowne2000
I guess that my 17th century knowledge is a bit lacking here. Can someone fill in the gaps? What are the "remedies" that he is suggesting? Reading between the lines I guess it is mass deportation/extermination of Muslims?

He's talking about partition, "toleration" (apparently not the modern meaning of the word), suppression of religious minorities and forced conversion.

Sixth paragraph from bottom. Beyond that I have no idea what he means -- I am equally clueless re 17th century.

6 posted on 11/05/2001 4:38:24 PM PST by gumbo
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To: gumbo
Thanks, I reread the bit and found the mention of conversion to Christianity. Problem is that there are so many articles to read and so little time to do it! I for one don't think these guys will convert willingly. It is kind of scary when you think about those two American women being held for teaching Christianity. These people are not on the same wavelength as westerners.
7 posted on 11/05/2001 4:50:08 PM PST by VoteHarryBrowne2000
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To: gumbo
Re: 17th century. I presume he is referring to the expulsion of the Muslims from the east.
The Moors left from Spain by the 1450s.
In the East, you has nice guys like Vlad the Impaler.
When presented with the boyz in the Toibans, he asked them to remove their headdresses.
They refused. He said, ok, guards, nail the Turbans to their heads.
And that is an example of how the Turks were driven from Europe.
8 posted on 11/05/2001 5:31:59 PM PST by ScholarWarrior
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To: Pokey78
Important post. Thanks.
9 posted on 11/05/2001 5:37:59 PM PST by liberallarry
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To: ScholarWarrior; VoteHarryBrowne2000
In the East, you has nice guys like Vlad the Impaler...He said, ok, guards, nail the Turbans to their heads. And that is an example of how the Turks were driven from Europe.

Ah. Well, that explains it.

I'm flagging VoteHarryBrowne2000 since he was the one who asked.

10 posted on 11/05/2001 5:54:44 PM PST by gumbo
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To: BRK
You're right, I think (post # 3.) Nevertheless, unless militant Islam is pushed back decisively and put to sleep for a hundred years, sooner or later we'll be forced to see it for what it is to them. Unfortunately, our liberal, enlightened Western societies are unprepared to fight a religious enemy within, even without the curses of political correctness and multi-culturalism. Let's say internment camps and mass deportations become unavoidable solutions to a major unrest arising among American Muslims. Can you see such solutions being considered, mentioned, much less implemented?
11 posted on 11/05/2001 5:54:54 PM PST by Revolting cat!
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To: Manny Festo
ping.
12 posted on 11/05/2001 5:58:58 PM PST by liberallarry
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To: ScholarWarrior
"Vlad the Impaler"

Count DRACULA

13 posted on 11/05/2001 6:01:44 PM PST by liberallarry
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To: Pokey78
OK with me.
14 posted on 11/05/2001 6:05:00 PM PST by lds23
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To: ScholarWarrior
As late as the Napoleonic Wars (1800-1815) the combattants were literally crucifying each other. The rules of civilized warfare are a rather new invention.
15 posted on 11/05/2001 6:07:38 PM PST by liberallarry
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To: gumbo
Would a common nail or a finish nail be used? I understand that a finish nail is used when you want to hide the nail hole. Hmmm... hard to figure which would look better on Osama and Omar.

Thanks for the info! This is what is great about FR! Information, we want information!

16 posted on 11/05/2001 6:46:05 PM PST by VoteHarryBrowne2000
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To: liberallarry
When in Rome . . .
17 posted on 11/06/2001 4:17:20 PM PST by ScholarWarrior
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To: VoteHarryBrowne2000
Finishing nails would take too long; you would need to countersink them and fill the holes with makeup.

Really only necessary when attaching the head to a fixture such as a mantel.

Now, attaching the head to a pole / pike would be much easier.
Remember the cardinal rule from the Brits -- soak in tar and pitch so that the crows won't get to it -- it'll last up to a year that way. Cheers.

18 posted on 11/06/2001 4:22:28 PM PST by ScholarWarrior
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To: *Clash of Civilizatio
Bump to Clash of Civilizations list.
19 posted on 11/28/2001 3:43:26 PM PST by denydenydeny
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