Posted on 11/06/2001 12:04:07 PM PST by marshmallow
A group of Wisconsin residents yesterday sued the state after being refused permission to decorate a Christmas tree with religiously themed ornaments. Eight citizens contend that the state's practice of not using religious ornaments on the Capitol's tree in Madison violates their free speech rights and free exercise of religion, "The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel" reported.
According to the suit, several of the plaintiffs want to "include messages that invoke God's blessing on the United States of America in light of the tragedies of Sept. 11, 2001." One of them, Wayne Bird, wants to create an ornament stating "God Bless America" for the tree, the "Journal Sentinel" reported.
"I am ready to fight terrorists," said Bird, an Air National Guard sergeant who leaves for duty overseas early next year to support an F-16 fighter group. "But I just can't believe I have to fight my own government for the right to place an ornament on the state holiday tree without asking a government official's permission."
Wisconsin does not have a written policy on tree ornaments, but it has had an unwritten policy since the mid-1980s that bans religious ornaments. The suit wants the state to accept and display their religious ornaments without regard to their religious content, the "Journal Sentinel" reported.
Well Wayne, you do I'm afraid. But there's a very good reason for it. It's because we have this wonderful thing called "freedom of religion." That's why that same government is about to ship you overseas. To fight for the freedom to not put decorations on Christmas trees.
Yes, but it is not freedom from religion. Government actively prevents the free expression of religion everyday. The Constitution has been so mutated, that it is interpreted to say exactly the opposite of what it clearly says.
I guess there would not be a problem with an image of Mohammed was put on the tree.
In other words, you can be any religion you want, but the goobermint can't force you into any religion. Far different thing.
There are many religious zealots who scream that the Founding Fathers were Christians, and founded our country upon it, yet many things, like their papers and words, state otherwise. These men were God fearing, God loving people, but not necessarily Christian- especially as "Christians" today shrilly proclaim. In fact, having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.
"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges himself as a believer in Christianity."
--The Rev. Dr. Wilson, quoted by Robert Dale Owen, 1831
"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine."
--George Washington - "the father of our country"
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..."
--John Adams, 1797, Treaty of Peace and Friendship
"I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, 1789
"The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
--Abraham Lincoln
"My husband is not a Christian but is a religious man, I think."
--Mary Todd Lincoln
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
--Benjamin Franklin
OK, I've put on my asbestos jammies... you can argue with me all you want, but you can't argue with their own words. That's why I quoted them. There are many, many more... I just didn't want to make too long a post. 8^)
"Winter Break" is what it is called at my kids' school.
This issue here is whether an American citizen should be allowed, under the Constitution, to place a religious ornament on a public Christmas tree. Is it your position as a non-Christian (I'm making an assumption) that you would impose your religious beliefs on these people?
Sounds very bigoted to me. But that's just me.
I never thought I'd see the day, but if that statement were true, I would refuse to serve, and would encourage any child, relative or friend of mine to do likewise.
Let the deviants and perverts go defend our freedoms for a change, if freedom from religion is that important to them.
I didn't mean to imply that they weren't Christian fundamentalist, I was indicating that they weren't even so-called Christian.
This issue here is whether an American citizen should be allowed, under the Constitution, to place a religious ornament on a public Christmas tree. Is it your position as a non-Christian (I'm making an assumption) that you would impose your religious beliefs on these people?
Sounds very bigoted to me. But that's just me.
"Exercise is best not gotten by jumping to conclusions."
Yup, and you, as many others, who "assume" would be quite wrong.
#1) I wouldn't impose my religious beliefs upon anyone, but then again, I probably wouldn't try to proselytize, preach, announce or otherwise try to make my personal religious beliefs even known to them at all... unless we were personally discussing those beliefs for the express purpose of "sharing" them.
#2) I wouldn't consider a personally inscribed or selected message invoking "God" or any other person's designated deity to be the business of, or of any concern of, the goobermint- state, local, federal, or even homeowners assn. My feeling is that anyone should be able to put any ornament with any inscription on the "public" tree, because that is exactly what it is- public. It's not the goobermints, it's not the local city council's... it's the "peoples". This is the problem with every level of goobermint... they think they are "the people". They aren't. They are "the people's" servants.
#3) I don't give a rat's a$$ whether any of the founding fathers owned or freed slaves, or knocked up any woman- married or not, nurse or not- or what specific religion they subscribed to- or not. Those things are of particular irrelevance to the results of their work, foresight, sacrifices and wisdom that created the Constitution and this Constitutional Republic. Just as my religious beliefs shouldn't predicate people's opinions of my actual actions, words or deeds- and vice versa.
And he who does "assume" and associate those things should probably re-read that particular passage of the Bible that states something along the lines of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
My problem is not with christianity, Christianity, or any other permutation thereof... it is with the loudmouthed bigots who claim to practice it, yet are so quick to point out someone who "had no problem with either slavery or with impregnating a woman to whom he was not married - and who was his daughter's nurse. Not a very Christian thing to do." Or as you might know it, "talking the talk instead of walking the walk".
I can see no bigotry on my part with what I wrote. But then again, maybe you should go re-read what I said... not what you think I said. Or "assume" what I said.
Oh Please. You even cite the Treaty of Tripoli (re: Treaty of Peace and Friendship). What a joke. You are so mis-informed that I don't even know where to start. Several of these are flat out lies, such as the George Washington quote which has been tuoted for years and is tied to the Oct. 1980 issue of Liberty Magazine featuring Article XI of the treaty and attributing that phrase to Washington.
Ok, that's entirely possible. Guess I'll have to go with something that predates 1980 even more:
"The Rev. Dr. Wilson, who was almost a contemporary of our earlier statesmen and presidents, and who thoroughly investigated the subject of their religious beliefs, ... affirmed that the founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected – George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, and Andrew Jackson – not one had professed a belief in Christianity.
--John E. Remsburg, Six Historic Americans, 1906
Oh, but in case Remsburg just didn't know what he was talking about and was just duped by some contemporary equivalent of Liberty Magazine, there's:
"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges himself as a believer in Christianity."
--The Rev. Dr. Wilson, quoted by Robert Dale Owen, 1831
Maybe Ol' George's teeth were just bothering him and he didn't take the time to "proof" ol' Joel's ayrabic translation, and signed off on it without knowing what he was signing off on. And Dr. Wilson was just blowing smoke also.
Regarding Franklin. Read the transcript from the Constitutional convention and you will find at least four scripture citations by Franklin (on just a single day).
"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did."
--Benjamin Franklin, letter to his father, 1738
I have no problem with Franklin, or any other of them quoting Scriptures. Seems as good a source as any to try to use to create a free Constitutional Republic... especially seeing that many other religions quote Scriptures also. Doesn't have a tremendous amount of relevance whether Franklin was a "Christian" or not- he was just not at all enamored of the "orthodoxy" of the religion. Like Franklin, I've found that the most bigoted, foul minded religious zealots quote a lot of Scripture to justify their "brand" of Christianity [or orthodoxy]... all the while doing exactly the opposite of what Scripture admonishes. I won't even go into listing the "holy wars" in history whose basis was rationalized with "Christian" Scriptures.
See my reply above to another poster who "assumed" - wrongly - about my original reply.
Re: John Adams and Paine, from John Adams diary dated July 26, 1796
Which John Adams? See the previous quote re: Dr. Wilson's statement, which includes John Q.
"Tom, had you and I been 40 days with Moses, and beheld the great God, and even if God himself had tried to tell us that three was one... and one equals three, you and I would never have believed it. We would never fall victims to such lies."
--John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."
--John Adams
"...But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes."
--John Adams, letter to John Taylor
Again, from ol' John A's pen to your eyes. Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, Paine, et.al., weren't against christianity, they were against bigoted, orthodox zealotry- which, by the way, we have plenty of here on good ol' FR.
I didn't post my original reply to denigrate or put down "Christianity", or even to claim that the great men who founded our Republic were atheistic infidels, but just that they didn't seem to subscribe to bigoted orthodoxy and zealotry. I have to admit that a small part of the reason I did post my reply was to bring to the fore some of that vitriolic, bigoted zealotry. Seems that I succeeded in that... 'course that isn't any great accomplishment 'cuz it's sooooooo easy to do. 8^)
I guess I have to support ol' Ben's feelings which he described in a letter to Rev. George Whitefield in 1753:
"The faith you mention has doubtless its use in the world. I do not desire to see it diminished, nor would I desire to lessen it in any way; but I wish it were more productive of good works than I have generally seen it. I mean real good works, works of kindness, charity, mercy, and public spirit, not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing, and reading, performing church ceremonies, or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments, despised even by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity"
--Benjamin Franklin
I still got them asbestos jammies on... seems like they haven't been hardly singed yet. At least, not by anyone with more than half a brain yet.
"Indeed, when religious people quarrel about religion, or hungry people quarrel about victuals, it looks as if they had not much of either among them."
--Benjamin Franklin
I have no doubt 'bout that at all! Sorta like throwing Biblical lines about to bolster one's arguments for or agin' any particular religious belief, huh?
I do have a funny quirk, tho'. I've noticed that I tend to read something that has been written more or less precisely as it is written, somewhat logically and rationally, rather than impressing my opinion or feelings upon the written word. Then,after evaluation and contemplation, I will formulate opinions and thoughts regarding what has actually been written, and within which context it was written.
Having said that, please forgive me if I don't equate the Founder's use of words such as "God", "Infinite Father", "Deity" and similar as exact translations into "Christian Faith". I am not so naive, nor zealous, to make unfounded equations and assumptions like that.
Like I stated in another of my replies above, I have no doubt about the Founding Father's desire to incorporate the good things that are the basis of the "christian faith" into the foundations of our country. Like Mammy Yokum allus used to say, "Good is better, 'cuz it's nicer." But to baldly equate their words of reverence for the "good things" into the orthodoxy, bigotry and zealotry of present day "Christian Faith", I can't stretch their own words far enough for that. Quite the contrary. (See quotes in above replies.)
Thanks for your measured input, though.
Ayup, yer got that right. An' there seems to be copious evidence that if we aren't livin' in one now, we be livin' in one that's rapidly slidin' down the greased skids to it. 8^)
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