Posted on 12/04/2009 9:55:41 PM PST by Gordon Greene
Great reply, “An historian, who never met Gen. Washington, passes judgment on his faith.
So he declined the church sacraments? Big deal.
They’re not what saves you anyway. It’s repentance and Christ alone.”
The point I’d like to add (not to CW... he’s a lost cause, but for others who may fall prey to his babblings) is that for every single claim he makes about the faith, or lack thereof of the Founders, we can post 50 direct quotes that support Christ, the Word of God and Jehovah as they relate to the founding and future direction of this country.
The problem is when an abundance of information is presented they always lose. That’s why they always cherry pick and take out of context convenient statements from the Bible and from the founders. They don’t take us to task on the founding documents because they lose there as well.
The problem is, if they win everyone loses... even them.
Put your pants back on, I admitted no such thing.
So.... could you be reasoned out of your belief in God?
Would it not be fair to simply point out that while most of the Founding Fathers were Christians some of them were Deists and Unitarians?
“Put your pants back on, I admitted no such thing.”?
What the...???
“So.... could you be reasoned out of your belief in God?”
No, I couldn’t. You are with your reply, again equating my belief in God with your belief in evolution. They are different things yet similar. You claim that evolution is true based on conclusive, physical evidence, I’m sure. If that is the case, your claim is incorrect. There is no conclusive evidence for evolution from one species to another. There is also no photographic or scientific evidence of God as such, so my belief in God comes from observation of the world around me and the testimony of early believers. You may not believe that your trust in evolution could be categorized as ‘faith’ or ‘religion’, but just because you don’t believe it does not make it an incorrect analysis.
Evolutionists believe, not because they see (since there is nothing to see). They believe out of an abundance of misinformation given by misguided “scientists” who have passed beliefs and the equivalant of old-wives tales along for a couple of generations now. Belief in Biblical Creation has stood the test of time and scientists have been unable to disqualify the validity of the Genesis account.
(No pants were removed in the posting of this reply)
Your problem here is that belief in evolution is not limited to a bunch of drug crazed evo-athiest, Obamabots on FR that you think are gleefgully fabricating false science for the purposes of tugging on God's nose hairs. Christianities largest denomination, with a billion (with a "B") Roman Catholic Church supports Theistic Evolution as do many of the Catholics on FR. As so eloquently states by cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI in "In the Beginning...." A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall;
It says that the Bible is not a natural science textbook, nor does it intend to be such. It is a religious book, and consequently one cannot obtain information about the natural sciences from it. One cannot get from it a scientific explanation of how the world arose; one can only glean religious experience from it. Anything else is an image and a way of describing things whose aim is to make profound realities graspable to human beings. One must distinguish between the form of portrayal and the content that is portrayed. The form would have been chosen from what was understandable at the time -- from the images which surrounded the people who lived then, which they used in speaking and in thinking, and thanks to which they were able to understand the greater realities. And only the reality that shines through these images would be what was intended and what was truly enduring. Thus Scripture would not wish to inform us about how the different species of plant life gradually appeared or how the sun and the moon and the stars were established. Its purpose ultimately would be to say one thing: God created the world.
So be careful whom you call an idiot. That group includes many who are vastly your intellectual superior.
“Would it not be fair to simply point out that while most of the Founding Fathers were Christians some of them were Deists and Unitarians?”
Would it not be fair to point out the entire body of statements of the founders relating to God, the importance of the scriptures and Christianity in the founding of our country instead of cherry-picking from their words and others words about them?
Would it not be fair to point out the stated beliefs of the owner of freerepublic when asking that the atheists and evolutionists that post on this site be respectful of the same?
I’m not asking anyone to change their beliefs. I just think it would be nice if the Evos and Atheists were respectful of Christians while on this site. I don’t go to DU and slam you guys.
This post epitomizes your misunderstanding of those who do not completely agree with you. Catholics believe in Theistic Evolution, commonly referred to Intelligent Design, in which God used the process of evolution that He created to raise man. You contend that this in somehow anti or unChristian. As long as you and others take that position you can expect a hearty and sometime bumpy opposition here on FR.
Some were, some weren’t.
I didn’t see any pro God or Christianity quotes in your post from the ones who were.
*seething burning “hate”*
Time for the WAAAMMMMMBULANCE.
I readily acknowledge the influence that Christianity and the scriptures had on the founding of the country, but that doesn't take away from the fact that many of the more prominent Founding Fathers were influenced by Deism and Unitarianism. Isn't that fair?
Would it not be fair to point out the stated beliefs of the owner of freerepublic when asking that the atheists and evolutionists that post on this site be respectful of the same?
I would submit that a vigorous debate on the existence of God or the validity of evolution is not disrespectful. How does my pointing out that I have no belief in God or listing evidence of evolution show disrespect? I will agree that there are those on both sides of the debate who are disrespectful, of course, but that doesn't mean that we can't have a civil discussion.
I’m not asking anyone to change their beliefs.
I think it should be pointed out that there are many Christians who are telling people that they need to do just that. Isn't it a Christian calling to convert people?
I just think it would be nice if the Evos and Atheists were respectful of Christians while on this site. I don’t go to DU and slam you guys.
I will agree that "Evos" (an odd term...do you label one believes in plate tectonics a "Tecy"?) and atheists should be respectful of Christians while on (or off, for that matter) this site...with the caveat that if a Christian insults me without cause (as has happened before) I should feel free to throw it back in his face.
Do you agree that Christians should be respectful of Evos and atheists?
LOL! Yeah. Just because, in the very title of this thread, you branded them all as "Idiots," doesn't mean you can't also (smarmily) ask them to be "respectful."
So the pope is wrong about not being able to use the Bible to gain scientific insight. This guy figured a whole bunch of stuff out from his study of Scripture 800 years ago according to Gerald Schroeder.
“Nachmanides explains that on Day One, time was created. That’s a phenomenal insight. Time was created. You can’t grab time. You don’t even see it. You can see space, you can see matter, you can feel energy, you can see light energy. I understand a creation there. But the creation of time? Eight hundred years ago, Nachmanides attained this insight from the Torah’s use of the phrase, “Day One.” And that’s exactly what Einstein taught us in the Laws of Relativity: that there was a creation, not just of space and matter, but of time itself.”
The Age of the Universe
http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/ageoftheuniverse/index?tab=articles
It’s irrelevant what the pope’s pronouncements about the Bible are. He may dictate beliefs for the Catholic Church, but that’s as far as it goes. If he wants to tell Catholics that Genesis is allegory, that’s certainly his prerogative, but that doesn’t make it so.
Besides, does the Catholic Church really teach that man evolved from some ape like ancestor, instead of being created in the image of God from the dust of the earth, as the Bible teaches?
Is the pope saying the Bible is wrong about that?
From the content of most of the posts by the evos on any crevo thread posted by creationists, that's pretty debatable.
Besides, be a scientist. Back it up. Provide the links and documentation to prove it.
Better not let some of your compatriots hear that. They're always trying to bait creationists with the question of whether God it the Intelligent Designer to try to catch them in some perceived inconsistency. For the scorn many FRevos have for *Incompetent Design* you've opened a can of worms.
If you were given sufficient scientific evidence to invalidate Genesis, would you change your mind and agree that it was mythical?
The Church teaches that man was created in God's image and that that is not incompatible with evolution or science.
I find it strange that you quote Dr. Schroeder when it suits you, but as an Orthodox Jew he rejects the most important part of the bible, that Jesus was the Messiah and the Son of God. Aren't you the least bit embarrassed by this lapse in the continuity of your intellectual honesty?
Don't expect anymore acceptance and consideration of your beliefs than you show to others whose beliefs do not exactly match with yours.
I didn’t see any pro God or Christianity quotes in your post from the ones who were.
Why should there be, given that I was simply pointing out the error of asserting that the Founding Fathers were all Christians?
“Would it not be fair to point out the entire body of statements of the founders relating to God, the importance of the scriptures and Christianity in the founding of our country instead of cherry-picking from their words and others words about them?”
Do you realize that the statements of the Founding fathers on Christianity, God, faith, the Scriptures, etc., actually comprises an actually library of material; there’s so much of it.
I just turned around and grabbed one of many books on the subject on my own shelves:
THE CHRISTIAN LIFE AND CHARACTER OF THE CIVIL INSTITUTIONS OF THE UNITED STATES by Benjamin F. Morris — 1864(!!)
This book alone is 1,060 pages long. It is page after page of the writings of the founders and national leaders all the way to the Civil War period. It includes personal letters and journal entries on their faith and importance of Christianity to the American nation.
I’m just turning pages here. There are writings on the subject by James Otis of Mass., Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry, John Hancock, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, so many more, John Witherspoon, Benjamin Franklin, many more.
There is a long article here . . .
A Lecture on the Providence of God in the Government of the World -—Benjamin Franklin
Thomas Jefferson, George Mason, Gouverneur Morris, many more, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, many more, James Madison, James Monroe, George Washington.
My point is, once we get quoting and writing, the documentation is so very abundant.
There is an organization that has compiled a huge library of documentation-—
The Foundation for American Christian Education (FACE) in Chesapeake, VA. You can google that.
Another organization that has amassed tons of documents on this subject-—
Wallbuilders.
All the time I was growing up people told me that George Washington was a Deist. I believed that unil 1982 when we began home schooling our children and designing our own curriculum. In 1982, in an obscure used book shop, I found a copy of the . . .
PRAYERS OF GEORGE WASHINGTON. Prayers penned doen by Washington himself.
The book, from page to page inokes the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and speaks of Jesus’ Blood being necessary for the redemption of his soul. In these prayers, Washington confesses his own sins and begs God’s forgiveness by Christ. He thanks God for His providence and for INTERVENING in his life and in the affairs of the Nation. These are not the words of a Deist.
Were there Deists and Unitarians there. Sure. But they showed no disdain for Christianity and respected its aderants, recognizing its stabilizing qualities in believers and the benefit that had upon the new Nation.
(cough)Thomas Paine...
Wonderful post so I’ve taken the liberty to repost and copy to others... thank you.
““Would it not be fair to point out the entire body of statements of the founders relating to God, the importance of the scriptures and Christianity in the founding of our country instead of cherry-picking from their words and others words about them?”
Do you realize that the statements of the Founding fathers on Christianity, God, faith, the Scriptures, etc., actually comprises an actually library of material; there’s so much of it.
I just turned around and grabbed one of many books on the subject on my own shelves:
THE CHRISTIAN LIFE AND CHARACTER OF THE CIVIL INSTITUTIONS OF THE UNITED STATES by Benjamin F. Morris — 1864(!!)
This book alone is 1,060 pages long. It is page after page of the writings of the founders and national leaders all the way to the Civil War period. It includes personal letters and journal entries on their faith and importance of Christianity to the American nation.
I’m just turning pages here. There are writings on the subject by James Otis of Mass., Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry, John Hancock, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, so many more, John Witherspoon, Benjamin Franklin, many more.
There is a long article here . . .
A Lecture on the Providence of God in the Government of the World -—Benjamin Franklin
Thomas Jefferson, George Mason, Gouverneur Morris, many more, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, many more, James Madison, James Monroe, George Washington.
My point is, once we get quoting and writing, the documentation is so very abundant.
There is an organization that has compiled a huge library of documentation-—
The Foundation for American Christian Education (FACE) in Chesapeake, VA. You can google that.
Another organization that has amassed tons of documents on this subject-—
Wallbuilders.
All the time I was growing up people told me that George Washington was a Deist. I believed that unil 1982 when we began home schooling our children and designing our own curriculum. In 1982, in an obscure used book shop, I found a copy of the . . .
PRAYERS OF GEORGE WASHINGTON. Prayers penned doen by Washington himself.
The book, from page to page inokes the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and speaks of Jesus’ Blood being necessary for the redemption of his soul. In these prayers, Washington confesses his own sins and begs God’s forgiveness by Christ. He thanks God for His providence and for INTERVENING in his life and in the affairs of the Nation. These are not the words of a Deist.
Were there Deists and Unitarians there. Sure. But they showed no disdain for Christianity and respected its aderants, recognizing its stabilizing qualities in believers and the benefit that had upon the new Nation.”
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