Why is the The Mesopotamian Civilization considered the oldest civilization?

[dhs12345]

Ya. Civilization. Lol.

[waterhill]

I like to tell people when they ask where I am from. I answer Mesopotamia; they turn their heads like a cat/dog.

[Bob Ireland]

You refuse to acknowledge the irony of my argument and cling to a dogmatic position. I guess I will go my way in peace.

[Bob Ireland]

You should get along well with SunkenCiv above; you cannot perceive the irony in my statements.

[SunkenCiv]

Yeah, my clinging to the actual literal meaning instead of arbitrary discrete ideas is really dogmatic. “Etymologically, the word civilization relates to the Latin term civitas, or ‘city’...”

[SunkenCiv]

The existence of a civilization requires the existence of cities. Prior to that, ya got culture. Culture is before, during, and after (or just without) civilization. I have no idea why this has turned into such a problem around here.

[Wuli]

I think it is the civilization of the Sumerians that is considered the oldest and only so by the standards of Western civilizations and only because some lineage and progression can be shown from Sumer, to the broader Middle East, down into Egypt across from the Assyrians and Hittites into the Greeks and across to the Romans and from the Greeks and Romans into all of Europe. All of that in spite of linguistics having deciphered what is called the Ind-European family of languages which includes languages of the Indian sub-continent as well as European languages with some long lost predecessors of common origin, and all while the civilizations of the Indus river valley were just as old as the Sumerians. And, no doubt there was some civilization in mainland China, along its river valleys, just as old as those that thrived in Sumer and in the Indus river valley.

[Grzegorz 246]

The last Aurochs, despite some late efforts to save them, died in Poland in the early 17th century. They, just like Giant Sloths, were finished off by a well known predator called homo sapiens. Mammoths, Mastodons and related animals went extinct due to radical climate changes at the end of the last ice age + homo sapiens “helped” a bit.

When I first read about Mesopotamia, I thought there must be some “lost” ancient civilizations as all of that couldn't just happen out of nothing. Now, with Göbekli Tepe and similar sites, we start to put the puzzles together and there's no Atlantis in it. It turns out that humans at the hunter-gatherer stage, could develop and pass on more knowledge than we previously thought.

[PIF]

Yes there were a few remaining pockets of Aurochs, but most were gone. Same for the Giant sloth.

I notice you used these two examples to invalidate the whole argument I made without mentioning all the other animals that did go extinct - nice try.

As for a previous civilization(s) - you are rapidly becoming in the minority on that point of view with the constant barrage of new information about the past - both from discoveries and from the use of modern tech cf satellites and LIDAR.

Clinging to the meme of humans did it (killed off the mammoths) has now become so unlikely that hanging on to that POV is silly.

Using GT as an example that there was no previous civilization belies the fact that we sill have no idea who built it, why and how - if ‘they’ were the stereotypical image of ‘hunter-gatherers’. Using the lame explanation of they ‘could develop and pass on more knowledge than we previously thought” exposes the standard consensus thinking - the bane of any advancement in any field.

If you want references there are hoist of them on the internet, in libraries and books in print. Ask them, not me. I’m dome here.

[Reily]

I read somewhere that Aurochs survived until the early 17th century - last one dying in Poland around 1627.

[PIF]

In places - once they were found everywhere. And that is just a diversionary example - all the other major fauna were extincted.

Its sort of like saying not all dinosaurs became extinct just because there are a few random examples found in layers millions of years younger.

[Reily]

Yeah, I know. Many European heraldry emblems have an auroch worked into the symbols. Powerful animals essentially Cape Buffalo in Europe.

[Grzegorz 246]

Those animals lived in cold areas, which shrank radically due to climate changes.

“we sill have no idea who built it, why and how”

So let's assume that it was a part of ancient civilization... ? GT structures are not that advanced. They show that humans were making gradual progress over thousands of years on the way to build the first civilizations.

You're done here because you've got nothing to back up your claim that there were some civilizations over 12k years ago, let alone the world wide civilization.

[PIF]

Yep made my troll list - now go away.

[Grzegorz 246]

[Red Badger]

“Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn.”.......................