The Goths and Later Germanic[CELTIC] Invaders

University Web Site ^ | Unk | Unknown

[LostTribe]

An interesting history of the Celtic involvement in the Roman Empire in early AD. The Romans wrote much of the history so their side can be presumed to be favored.

Note the references to Goths, Germans, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks, Helvetii and other asst. "barbaric Tribes". These are all references to Celtic Tribes. [The exception is the Huns.]

The Germans of that time were not the Germans of today, but Celts of the Germani Celtic tribe which provided the name "Germany".

[LostTribe]

The part about the Goths aimlessly wandering around and maybe coming from Scandinavia is pretty much "party line". Pretty thin gruel.

Also, the author seems a bit perplexed about the Goths migrating to "north of the Black Sea". I suspect it's mostly a matter of confusion in the dating of some Celtic finds that has their direction of travel reversed. We know the Celts initially came FROM the region of the Black Sea and the Caucasus Mountains many hundreds of years earlier. That is why they are called "Caucasians".

[LostTribe]

Bump.

[blam]

We would be remiss to leave out the effect of the Han Chinese and their impact on this period. There were large numbers of Caucasians (proto-Celts) and others who were routed out of the Tarim and Turpin basins and fled all the way to the Black Sea area.This happened in the 100-200AD period.

"As in the Former Han, a strong centralized government was restored and powerful reforms were instituted in the early years of the Later Han; these reforms led to an astonishing recovery of a population that had been devastated by war and famine. As in the former Han, this period of creative reform and restoration was immediately followed by an aggressive military expansion. In 50 AD, the Later Han government allied itself with some Hsiung Nu tribes and, forty years later, marched across the Gobi desert and attacked the northern Hsiung Nu. So effective was this campaign that it provoked massive migrations of Hsiung Nu west into central Asia and north into Russia; these migrations eventually pushed the Hsiung Nu all the way to Europe and finally Rome: these nomads were known to the West as the "Huns." The military expansion of the Chinese empire would push the Chinese all the way to the Caspian Sea; this mind-boggling control of large parts of inner Asia established the greatest trade route in the ancient world: the Silk Road."

[blam]

The Goths

[Sam Cree]

I guess that "Gothic" architecture and "Gothic" lettering are connected, but am curious to know more.

[LostTribe]

>I guess that "Gothic" architecture and "Gothic" lettering are connected, but am curious to know more

Beats me. Let us know when you find out. {ggg}.

[LostTribe]

>According to their own traditions, the Goths originated in a land called 'Gothiscandza', identified as southern Scandinavia.

Sounds like Denmark or lower Sweden.

>It was population pressure which, according to their legends, caused them to move en masse to ... Poland.

Must have been really crowded there.  Sure, you betcha.

>Unfortunately, there is no archaeological evidence to support the legend.

Oh, well. They always were great story tellers.

>What does seem to have happened is that there was a slow, steady drift from the Oder-Vistula region into the Ukraine, or Scythia as it was known to the ancients.

Probably went back there to visit their old Uncle BjÖrn. {ggg}. But it is interesting, most everywhere they go they run into other tribes of Celts. Was there any one else there in any numbers besides Celts?

[William Terrell]

What little evidence we have indicates that they probably came from Scandinavia.

I love these statements. How did they get to Scandinavia, migrate down from the North Pole where they spontaniously sprang into being from ice crystals?

[LostTribe]

>How did they get to Scandinavia, migrate down from the North Pole where they spontaniously sprang into being from ice crystals?

HA! That's no worse than the "widely accepted" premise that the Celts suddenly sprung up from nowhere to appear in Austria and Switzerland. So what were they, Swiss elves on hyperpowerful Austrian beer?

[blam]

Good morning bump.

[Sam Cree]

Hi, LostTribe. Here's the first result from a search:

Where does the term "gothic" come from?

There is a lot of justified confusion about this term. It originally referred to some of the German tribes that would ultimately participate in the sacking of Rome. The term "gothic" became a synonym for uncivilised and barbaric. (The term "vandal" also comes from a German tribe name.)

In the Middle Ages, large and ominous cathedrals were built in the Ogive style. Baroque historians would later refer to the style as "gothic" to indicate that they found it unrefined and tasteless. However, the joke never got off the ground. Instead of changing popular perception of the architecture, they succeeded only in changing the popular definition of the word. People assumed "gothic" meant "dark and ominous" because that's what the Ogive style evokes.

Next, we arrive at the macabre and mysterious literature of the late 19th century (Mary Shelly's Frankenstein and Bram Stoker's Dracula, for example). The term "gothic" was extended to it because of the ominous imagery associated with the churches. This expanded its meaning further to include the macabre. What do you mean by {ggg}?

[LostTribe]

>The term "gothic" became a synonym for uncivilised and barbaric.

It all depends on who writes the history, doesn't it.

>What do you mean by {ggg}

{ggg} is a small GRIN.  {gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg} is a BIG toothy GRIN.

[Sam Cree]

I think the "gothic" cathedrals of Europe represent some of the most beautiful architecture ever designed by man. Even though they're not really Gothic, apparently.

Somehow I'd never made the connection between the Goths and "gothic" before.

Also didn't realize that the Goths were Celtic. I read last year a book on the Celtic empire...it surprised me, I'd had no idea it had once been such an important and extensive culture.

[LostTribe]

>Also didn't realize that the Goths were Celtic.

It is interesting how few people make the connection between the many European "Tribes" and the Celts.  It's the way history is taught I suppose.  Historians seem long on analysing the trees but are often blind when it comes to finding the obvious forest which surrounds them.

>I read last year a book on the Celtic empire...it surprised me, I'd had no idea it had once been such an important and extensive culture.

Taking from my Freeper Home Page at:  HISTORY:

These Millions of Celts grew to become Tens, then Hundreds of Millions as they migrated in waves westward and northwest to Galatia, Ephesus, Corinth, Thessalonika, Phillipi, Collosse, to what is today Hallstatt, Austria and Neuchatel, Switzerland (where exist major Celtic digs and museums) and beyond, to totally dominate Northern and Western Europe. These Celts (also as Cimmerians, Scythians, Danaoi, Massagetae, Milesians, Masilia, Sarmatians, Germani, Goths, Franks, Gauls, Lombards, Belgae, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vandals, Danes, Normans, and other assorted "Barbarians") are the rootstock of today’s Europeans and Americans who became the backbone of global Christianity.

The Celts were clearly not just scuffy little bands of timid Europeans hiding in the woods and looking to stay out of trouble with the "primary" inhabitants.  The Celts WERE the primary inhabitants of Europe, to this day.

-LT

[Sam Cree]

"The Celts WERE the primary inhabitants of Europe, to this day."

That makes it sound like all of us, except for the Latins, are some sort of Celtic descendants. My blood for instance, is Dutch, German, Irish, + Scot, Welsh, a little English. I'm married to a Jewish lady of Russian and Hungarian descent. I suppose that's all Celtic blood of one type or another.

It makes it sound like any northern European type is Celtic.

But do you really think that such a small group as the Lost Tribes could have generated what became the rather large population of basically all the peoples of Northern Europe?

[LostTribe]

"The Celts WERE the primary inhabitants of Europe, to this day."

That makes it sound like all of us, except for the Latins, are some sort of Celtic descendants.

The vast majority of Northern and Western Europe are descended from the Celts.  The English/Irish/Welch/Scottish/Cornwall view of the Celts is MUCH too narrow.  It ignores the vast population of Celts on the continent, but it is good for Anglo-tourism. {ggg}.  Celtic study on the continent (mostly NOT in the English language) concentrates on early Celtic history, pretty much ignoring England.  Ah, well...

>My blood for instance, is Dutch, German, Irish, + Scot, Welsh, a little English.

Those countries all have Celtic origins, including Germany, which is named after the "Germani" Celtic tribe.  However the Germani were driven out to the North and West by Slavic tribes so Germany today is not considered primarily Celtic.

>It makes it sound like any northern European type is Celtic.

No, but certainly the overwhelming majority in northern and western Europe.  That is now changing of course with the heavy influx of "immigrants" from the east and south.

>But do you really think that such a small group as the Lost Tribes could have generated what became the rather large population of basically all the peoples of Northern Europe?

The myth there is "...such a small group".  Take a look at the population numbers cited in my FR Profile site. Click Here.  We are talking about a Northern Kingdom/Lost Tribes of Israel population of roughly 10% of the GLOBAL population. That is not a "small group" likely to become "Lost" or assimilated.  With Celtic offspring today approaching 1 BILLION people, that 10% number is still in line with 3,000 years ago.

Some people find it distressing that the Southern Kingdom/Jewish population today is only 11(?) million or so while their Northern Kingdom cousins growth followed the general growth of the rest of the global population.  It comes as a shock to realize is it not the Northern Kingdom which almost disappeared, but the Southern Kingdom.  Gods punishment works in mysterious ways.

[PaulKersey]

Great article. Shows how extensive the Celts were in Europe. Looks like European history is mostly about Celts fighting Celts, except for the Romans and some Slavics of course!

[blam]

Now you've done it. (I have been busy in Southern China looking for the Xiongnu people and now you have distracted me)

I have looked into my library for things Celtic and have found a book by Henri Hubert titled, The History Of The Celtic People. It was originally published in 1934 as The Rise Of The Celts and The Greatness And Decline Of The Celts. As I was flipping through the book, I found an article from the Smithsonian, May 1993, by Dora Jane Hamblin, titled Once Maligned, Celtics Are Now Touted As The First Europeans stuck in the pages.

The 1993 Smithsonian article has some splendid pictures of Celtic art. I tried to pull them up on the 'net' without success. Might you try?

I've lost the trail on the Xiongnu people so, I guess I'll read Henri's book. lol.

[blam]

BTW, I suspect that the Xiongnu people may be related to the Huns and Picts.