Posted on 03/16/2018 5:25:16 AM PDT by Eleutheria5
> These men (the Latvian SS men) didn’t have many good choices. <
I don’t disagree with that. And I have no problem with Latvia honoring those men. But I have a problem with the organizers specifically connecting the event to the unit the men were in.
The Latvian men were (mostly) honorable. Their SS unit - any SS unit - was odious. Celebrate the men. Shun the unit.
In a way this is like a single woman who, by herself, raised her children and then put them all through college. But the only decent job she could find was working as an accountant in an abortion facility. She never killed anyone while working there. She never even helped. All she did was keep the books.
I’d note this woman’s efforts to help her family. But I’d condemn her place of employment.
ok, but seriously,
Basically I can understand the Polish and Russian and French attitude which was "this nation has brought hell on earth twice already, it must be obliterated for the sake of humanity" - it is understandable BUT the problem is that the victims of this were women and children. It was one thing to target the soldiers who committed the atrocities but another to kill innocents
Bomber Harris was wrong.
Germany had a policy of shooting Jewish children yes
The Waffen SS were in general vile with two exceptions:
In my humble opinion LR and TC - you guys are trying to compare the creature from Alien versus Predator = both the Soviets and the Nutzis were evil, vile.
This was wrong but not evil on the sense of the SS where women and children were TARGETED.
#2 These men marching in Estonia did not commit those crimes
If you were going to say this about Lithuanians and to some extent Latvians then yes, there are instances of Lits committing horrific holocaust crimes - and I don't know why they did that; but the Estonians while not "free" of this stain did not commit the same level.
And while you are right to condemn anyone whocommitted the holocaust you must not condemn those who fought on the side of NG against the Soviets because they believed it to be the only way they could save their nation.
I call a terroristOne who targets civilians - Bomber Harris to some extent did that, the NKVD and nutzis and indeed the Soviets in general did that, But Irgun targeted soldiers and policemen in an occupying state. These were acts of war, but not terrorism.
Bad, but you can empathize with them - the nutzis were a lesser evil to them than the Sviets
Versailles was also largely France's idea as the USA withdrew from the world (isolationism) and the UK was not eager to see a hobbled Germany (thereby giving France a free hand in the continent). But France suffered grieviously in WWI - most of the battles of the Western Front were on its territory and it lost millions of people. That traumatised them affecting their performance in WWII
However, while Versailles was the reason given by H, it was not the direct reason he was elected. The direct reason was the depression and the massive inflation in Germany AND the "stab in the back theory"
Versailes and war indemnities were bad, but worse was that the Entente never took the war inside Germany, and the German generals gave up command to civilians and then blamed them (Stab in the back) - so ordinary Germans thought "what the hey? We have troops in other countries and now we are surrendering? It must be some conspiracy")
What are you saying Eleutheria? moses said As the war came to a conclusion and the Czechs were facing a Russian occupation. Vasoff’s million man, Army Russians and Ukrainians fighting for Germany on the eastern front supplied by Himmler fought the SS now in control of Prague and chased them out and liberated Prague which kept the Russians from doing so.
Moses is talking about the ROA in the Czech republic and you are talking about the march in Estonia. Two very different things
the ROA were Russians looking for a way to fight the Soviets. They chose the other evil because the Americans and British offered nothing. At the end of the war they still taught something could be done, btu they were sold out as were other Eastern and Central Europeans.
The hell that was felt in Central and Eastern Europe was not only a hell for the Jews. Remember that others suffered as well.
Patton was right. It would have saved millions of lives.
And blacks suffered hell on slaving ships. And Confederate prisoners of war suffered hell in yankee prison camps. The past is relevant. But it does not dictate the present.
The Latvians sided with the Nazis to rid themselves of the Russians. Then they turned on their ‘liberators’ when they no longer needed them. That’s pragmatic. Marching with the SS right now, however, is not an alliance of convenience, it is an embrace of the now defunct SS’ ideology. And—yes—others besides Jews suffered during WW II—at the hands of the Wehrmacht and the SS, including Latvians and Estonians. It is an affront, not an historical pageant.
In the Nutzi extermination camps you hadJews,Gypsies, Poles etc.
The Latvians are not marching with the German SS - they are marching with their own team who fought the svoiets. The LatvianSS did not commit the crimes theGerman SS did.
Blacks hell on slaving ships is not relevant to the hell faced in central and eastern europe during WWII
It is comparable in that it is a grievous error for them to obsess about the slave ships in this day and age.
So, too, it is a grievous error to continue to identify with the SS uniform, boots and insignia in this day and age, just because of an alliance of convenience against the Soviets back in the day. Only the symbolism remains. The alliance is over, and the actual SS is thankfully gone. There’s no need to associate with the uniform, etc. That was a necessity then, as homage to one enemy whose help was needed to push out and keep out another. Now, if you want to commemorate the Latvian home army’s defense against the Soviets, you can dress them in national costumes or some special hybrid uniform that’s uniquely Latvian.
Dressing up in the uniform of the SS is inherently pernicious, not only to Jews but also to Gypsies, Poles, etc. Your defense does not fly. At the time the Latvian home army had to wear a despicable uniform in order to obtain help from Germany defending their native land, but there is nothing Latvian about the uniform. Most likely the Waffen SS members themselves looked down on the Latvian SS as a bunch of provincial children dressing up like their cosmopolitan daddy. Would you similarly justify a group of Boston Irish wearing the KKK uniform if they were to say, “our chapter of the KKK was not involved in lynchings and cross burnings. We just were opposed to school busing and affirmative action.” The uniform that they are wearing on parade is illegal in Germany itself, and for good reason. It shouldn’t be celebrated in Latvia, either.
The LatvianSS did not commit the crimes theGerman SS did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumbula_massacre
Article is contradictory, and besides it’s wiki, but it’s a good starting point. Comments?
the Latvian Legions did not participate in this. The Arajs Kommando were not latvian legions
Whether or not the Latvian Legion was involved in war crimes is a matter of controversy. However, of note, particular to the Latvian Legion in Latvia, the last mass killing of Jews, gypsies, or people caught up in Nazi Germany's program of systematic genocide occurred in March 1942, a year before the formation of the Latvian Legion and was carried out by specially directed German SS units. The Latvian Legion was fighting for its freedom, swearing to fight against Bolshevism and the return of the communist regime into Latvia. Their concerns were far different from Hitler's national-social ideology. Latvian historians maintain that the Latvian Legion itself was a front line combat unit and did not participate in any war crimes. Moreover, the Latvian Legion, being an organization of conscripts, was exempt from the opinion rendered at Nuremberg trials,[5] consistent with findings by post-war Allied authorities. Nor has any Latvian ever been accused of any war crime while a member of the Latvian Legion.
However, as earlier members of the Latvian fascist movement Pērkonkrusts[26] and Holocaust participants such some 600 members of Arajs Kommando[27] later made it into the Legion,[8] the presence of these individuals as well as allegations against police battalions subsequent to the formation of the Legion[28] have been used by Soviet and later Russian authorities to denounce the entire Legion as war criminals
Dressign up as LatvianSS is not celebrating the killings committed by the Germans.
It is celebrating the occupation of Latvia by Germany, and the subservience of Latvian home guard to Germany. If we were to take my example of the Boston Irish dressing up in sheets a bit further, and have them doing this for the St. Paddy’s Day parade, and in gratitude for all the help that Robert Byrd and David Duke gave them against busing and affirmative action, would dancing the Irish Jig and getting plastered somehow make it about being Irish? That’s aside from the killings, which btw the locals took part in under the leadership of the SS. Latvia was unfortunately caught between the devil and the deep blue sea, so they chose German subservience over Russian subservience. The Slovaks did something similar. It’s not a pleasant thing, but it happened.
Do you celebrate that subservience 70 years later? I’m not Latvian, but if I were I would have nothing to do with commemorating my country’s occupation, especially not wearing a hated uniform like that.
I ask for comments, and I get cut and paste. I read enough of the wikipedia article to note that it contradicts itself in several places. And the passage you quote is absurd. Latvia cannot be said to have been fighting for its freedom while under German occupation, and when the Latvian Legion was made up of conscripts. They were fighting against Soviet domination by submitting to Nazi domination.
This is not about who did and did not take part in the Rumbala Massacres. But since we’re on the subject, it’s noteworthy that 600 of the Latvian Legion conscripts were originally Arajs Kommando members, and that the Rumbala Massacres were carried out by the SS Einsatsgrupen A with the participation of members of the Arajs Kommando and other Latvian auxiliaries. But this is not my focus. If you want, say the Latvian Legion was only fighting at the front lines against Russia. Fine.
Bottom line is, the SS uniform and the Wehrmacht uniform were the mark of the German occupiers, and those Latvians who wore it were signifying their subservience to Germany. That is exactly what the Germans meant, and exactly how it was understood. To wear this uniform now is to glorify subservience. At the time it was an unfortunate sacrifice that Latvians made to get shut of the Soviets. To glorify it now is to glorify self-humiliation long after both the Nazi and Soviet oppressors are gone.
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