Esau Endorses Nimrod - Josephus reporting; Babel on the Potomac

writer | February 26, 2009 | Quicksilver

[OneVike]

those who like prophecy

I am always amazed by those who study the end times, yet they know very little about the book of genesis.

Sure they can tell you the stories and give you a rough outline of the book, but they really do not understand the relevance it holds to the rest of the Bible. Especially as it pertains to the book of Revelations.

[Bob Ireland]

BTTT

[OneVike]

Including the table of contents it is 15 pages in a word document.

[Bob Ireland]

***[Genesis] as it pertains to the book of Revelations***

God changeth NOT! He treated Cain no differently than he treats all... no condemnation...

[DollyCali]

thanks.. when you chose a tag line like this, God DOES test you with it!!!

[OneVike]

When you say no condemnation for Cain. You do mean as long as he came back to God, but we do not know if he ever repented. His condemnation could be for an eternity if he did not.

[DManA]

All the books of the Bible are connected with cross references. Here is a graph that displays this:

http://www.chrisharrison.net/projects/bibleviz/index.html

[Bob Ireland]

OK; FReep mail me if you like, and I will return an e-mail address [or get it off of the above web site {post #7}]... or if you have another option.

[OneVike]

Open mouth and insert foot. LOL

Remember God bragging about His good and faithful servant Job?

It always reminds me to pray that He does not brag about me. But then again, I make so many mistakes I doubt He would.

[Bob Ireland]

***When you say no condemnation for Cain***

I mean that I read no words of condemnation by God in Genesis 4; that Cain condemned himself is inescapable... and, of course, it is appointed once for all men to die and then the Judgment.

[OneVike]

So true, did you know that in Gen 4:10 where God asked Cain,"
"What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground..

The Hebrew word used for blood was actually plural and thus should read "Bleeds"?

God is basically saying the blood of all of Able's children and his could have been descendants children that will now never be born cry out for justice.

That is how many ancient Hebrew scholars read this passage.

By the way I sent you my email address to your freepmail

[LiteKeeper]

I am an evangelical Christian, currently attending a non denominational church in Colorado Springs. I am seminary trained, holding a Master of Divinity degree from Talbot School of Theology. I was ordained 30 years ago, have pastored civilian churches, spent 10 years on active duty as an Army chaplain (after 19 years as an artillery officer), and have been a bible teacher without a church pulpit for the last 15 years since I retired from the Army. I teach Biblical Worldview and Apologetics classes, and having been teaching the Book of Genesis for the last seven years, five of those in the Community Chapel at the Air Force Academy.

[OneVike]

Thanks for the info. Me I am only a humble Deacon who also gives sermons at two retirement centers on Sunday afternoons. I have been sharing the word with those who will soon depart this world for home almost 4 years now.

I took seminary classes at Calvary Chapel Ministries in Chico Ca for a couple of years before they were forced to drop the school due to financial reasons.

I'll ask you the same thing I asked Bob Ireland,

Would you be interested in reading a thesis I wrote about the reformation?

I was told by my Church History professor when I was in seminary school that I should consider expounding upon my thesis and write a book on the subject.

I titled my thesis, “How the Renaissance Led to the Reformation” .

I would like to get as much feedback as I can before I decide to take on such an indepth project.

Interested?

[Bob Ireland]

***The Hebrew word used for blood was actually plural and thus should read "Bleeds"***

Do you have a source for that analysis? My interlinear Masoretic text only reads _dâmi_ and is translated as 'blood'. Apparently Gesenius does not recognize the word as a verb... I am not clear on it, and time right now does not allow a deeper enquiry.

[OneVike]

Yes I am, I have some more evidence for this at home in my library I will have look it up. However for now, I will give you this, which is from John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible. It is his take on genesis 4:10

Genesis 4:10 And he said,.... Not Cain, the last speaker, but the Lord God:

what hast thou done? what an heinous crime hast thou committed! how aggravated is it! I know what thou hast done; thou hast slain thy brother, thine own, thine only brother, a holy, righteous, and good man, who never gave thee any offence, or any just occasion of shedding his innocent blood: this he said as knowing what he had done, and to impress his mind with a sense of the evil, and to bring him to a confession of it, before the sentence was passed, that it might appear to all to be just, and of which there was full proof and evidence, as follows:

the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground; where it was split, and in which it was covered and hid, and where perhaps Cain had buried his body, that it might not be seen, and the murder not discovered; but God saw what was done, and the voice of innocent blood came into his ears, and cried for vengeance at his hands: it is in the original, "the voice of thy brother's bloods" (s), in the plural; which the Jews generally understood of the posterity that would have descended from Abel, had he not been murdered: the Targum of Onkelos is,"the voice of the blood of the seeds or generations that should come from thy brother;''see 2Kings 9:26 or it may respect the blood of the seed of the woman, of all the righteous ones that should be slain in like manner. The Jerusalem Targum is,"the voice of the bloods of the multitude of the righteous that shall spring from Abel thy brother,''or succeed him; see Matthew 23:35. Jarchi thinks it has reference to the many wounds which Cain gave him, from whence blood sprung; and every wound and every drop of blood, as it were, cried for vengeance on the murderer.

(s) קול דמי "vox Sanguinum", Pagninus, Montanus, &c.

I do hope this helps, by the way I sent you my email address to your Freep-Mail so you can forward your to me. Then I will send you my thesis.

[MinuteGal]

Excellent post.....interesting thread.

Thanks for the ping.

Leni

[LiteKeeper]

It sounds interesting, but I am working full time as a computer application developer and teaching three classes a week. BUT, I have a friend who teaches Church History at the same place where I teach. I will check to see if he is interested.

[Bob Ireland]

***the voice of thy brother's bloods***

Ahhhhh... now we can meet on common ground; before you translated it as 'bleeds', which I take to be a verb. Besides, I would never argue with the Targum Onkelos! :-P

Indeed, I would tend to agree with that interpretation, given the culture of that day. The Jewish Midrash sees the future seed of Abraham as being in his loins, their sins reflecting somewhat backwards upon the patriarch, his righteousness flowing down to his progeny. When Ham saw his father´s nakedness, it was not Ham that was cursed, but his offspring, so that it might reflect less back upon Noah. [Incidentally, that mystery is somewhat delved in to on my Noah page on the web site I mentioned.]

[This thread ended up going in a totally different direction than I had hoped!]

Also, you are way ahead of me on posting Hebrew script in HTML; I will e-mail you for particulars.

[gonzo]

Thanks, Bob. Interesting post .............. FRegards

[OneVike]

Also, you are way ahead of me on posting Hebrew script in HTML; I will e-mail you for particulars.

I wished I could help you on that, but unfortunately I cut and pasted the information and it just happened to appear in the way it was intended.

But hear is what the text looks like in HTML basic form before the machine translated it into Hebrew text.

Each letter starts with a & then their is a # next is the number corresponding with the Hebrew text in each case it is as follows 1511 then 1493 then 1500 Then each number is followed by an ; so it looks in HTML lingo like this....

& # 1511 ; (however without the space, I needed the space or else it would have translated to you and you would not see the formula)

So I will do each with the spaces, and then what it translates to.

& # 1511 ; equals ק

& # 1493 ; equals ו

& # 1500 ; equals ל

& # 1491 ; equals ד

& # 1502 ; equals מ

& # 1497 ; equals י

Now there are two different words here that are represented the first being
& # 1511 ; & # 1493 ; & # 1500 ; equals קול

The second word would be so

& # 1491 ; & # 1502 ; & # 1497 ; equals דמי

Thus the whole word for BLOODS in Hebrew would be קול דמי

It would seem that the main formula that drives the production of the figure needed for Hebrew text is the characters
&# (plus the corresponding Hebrew character number) then an ;

Now I did the best I could to show you what it is, however I do not know where you would find a list for the corresponding numbers for the Hebrew text. I am sure a cursory look on most HTML help sites might give the information needed.

I pray this helped.