Typical Japanese tanks of the 1939 era:
Type 89 Chi Ro medium tank:
Type 95 Ha Go light tank:
Posted on 08/02/2008 6:34:43 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson
I guess now we'll finally learn what's really going on in the Far East. Or not. Actually, I think this is the first article I've posted with this particular celebrity byline.
Related stories following the lead article:
SHANGHAI IS DISTURBED
about the goings on up north
BRITISH PROTEST JAPANESE STAND
Japanese rude to HM subject
Australian ‘Stork Derby’ Urged to Boost Birth Rate
OK, they are not all related to China, at least directly.
RED PAPER MAKES APPEAL
“Wuhan as impregnable as Madrid.”
Hmmm.
I believe General Zhukov was the mastermind behind the Soviet victory. He was imprisoned for being too popular after these battles, and therefore a perceived threat to Stalin. If he had been in charge in June 1941, instead of in the Gulag, the Nazis might not have had a cakewalk.
But at least he wasn’t killed in the purges, and came off the bench to win at Stalingrad etc. Something like 90% of Soviet generals were killed in the purges just prior to WW2.
Perhaps. I tend to think of these things as 'being in the right place at the right time with the right forces'.
Consider what might have happened to Patton's career had he not slapped that soldier in Sicily & been relieved? Would he have continued in command of the 5th Army at Salerno & beyond? Would his career have been spent in what became the Italian side-show after the Normandy landings? It would have been a terrible waste of America's leading armor expert. But these mistakes sometimes happen.
After the defeat at Savo Island in which the US Navy lost 2 Rear Admirals in a night cruiser battle against the Japanese, Rear Admiral Halsey was promoted to Vice Admiral & put in charge of the Solomons Campaign. He reportedly sent his 3-star VADM insignia to both widows with a note saying that he owed his current status to their husbands' brave deeds. Halsey appreciated 'luck', 'fate', or whatever you choose to call it.
This might be Zukov’s battle where he demolished the entire Japanese armored in Siberia, no survivors.
Did the Japanese have much armor up there? I was thinking that was their main problem -- that the Soviets had armor & the Japanese basically didn't?
Japan’s armor was never much, although this was considered an armored division. The Russians outgunned, out-maneuvered, out-armored, and crushed them.
If it would have been like it was in Europe, the Japanese would have not had a chance. Japan was a naval power, and weak in offensive operations far inland (unlike Nazi Germany).
Good point about fate, but it couldn’t have helped the red army that they lost 90% of their senior officers in the purges, and the rest were to terrified to tie their shoes without explicit orders.
"In 1938 Zhukov was directed to command the First Soviet Mongolian Army Group, and saw action against Japan's Kwantung Army on the border between Mongolia and the Japanese controlled state of Manchukuo in an undeclared war that lasted from 1938 to 1939.
"What began as a routine border skirmish—the Japanese testing the resolve of the Soviets to defend their territory—rapidly escalated into a full-scale war, the Japanese pushing forward with 80,000 troops, 180 tanks and 450 aircraft.
"This led to the decisive Battle of Khalkhin Gol. Zhukov requested major reinforcements and on August 15, 1939 he ordered what seemed at first to be a conventional frontal attack. However, he had held back two tank brigades, which in a daring and successful manoeuver he ordered to advance around both flanks of the battle.
"Supported by motorized artillery and infantry, the two mobile battle groups encircled the 6th Japanese army and captured their vulnerable supply areas. Within a few days the Japanese troops were defeated.
"For this operation Zhukov was awarded the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. Outside of the Soviet Union, however, this battle remained little-known as by this time World War II had begun.
"Zhukov's pioneering use of mobile armour went unheeded by the West, and in consequence the German Blitzkrieg against France in 1940 came as a great surprise. "Promoted to full general in 1940, Zhukov was briefly (January - July 1941) chief of the Red Army General Staff before a disagreement with Stalin led to him being replaced by Marshal Boris Shaposhnikov (who was in turn replaced by Aleksandr Vasilevsky in 1942).
"Ironically, this led to a relative non-accountability of Zhukov's military role in the huge territorial losses during the German 1941 invasion of the Soviet Union thus ensuring his presence "in the wings" for Stalingrad.
"The question of how much he could have done had he held command earlier is still much discussed."
Typical Japanese tanks of the 1939 era:
Type 89 Chi Ro medium tank:
Type 95 Ha Go light tank:
"The Russians outgunned, out-maneuvered, out-armored, and crushed them."
Typical Soviet 1930s era tanks:
T-26 light tank:
T-28 medium tank:
"The Type 97 Medium Tank first saw action against the Soviet Union in the Nomonhan Incident of July 1939.
"The 3rd Tank Regiment of Yasuoka Detachment had already received new Type 97 medium tanks as substitutes for existing Type 89 medium tanks, but the Regiment had replaced only four (including the regimental commander's vehicle) by time the Incident occurred. During fierce fighting against the Russians, the regimental commander's vehicle received a hit and Colonel Yoshimaru was killed.
"This was a grave warning that the Type 97 medium tank had not been designed with regard to tank fighting. However, Japan entered World War II before sufficient countermeasures were considered."
Thanks for the links. Just ‘looking’ at the competing tank designs it would appear that the main difference was in ‘how’ the armor was employed. Zhukov utilized his tanks in armored battle groups along with SP Arty & Motorized Infantry in a deep penetration battle — essentially a Blitzkrieg assault. I had read-up on the ‘incident’ during the weekend & I noted that the Russians used a lot of armored cars. This is probably how they moved their infantry.
The Japanese were more ‘conventional’ in their approach. 180 Japanese tanks. That is a divisions worth yet they were divided between only 2 tank regiments. That kinda hints at a rigid tactical system.
Even with all those seeming Russian tactical advantages, the key was the logistics employed by Zhukov. The way he utilized the limited rail capacity & augmented it with truck transport. That is why he was able to overwelm the Japanese 6th Army. Without those logistics the Russians could never have mounted an encirclement of that depth & scope.
"Zhukov utilized his tanks in armored battle groups along with SP Arty & Motorized Infantry in a deep penetration battle — essentially a Blitzkrieg assault."
Exactly.
I've argued here before, the battle of Khalkhin Gol (aka the Nomonhan Incident) of July 1939 can even be considered the war's "turning point," despite it happening before the war started.
My reasoning is that Hitler's only real possibility to win militarily was in first knocking the Soviets out of the war, before taking on the Americans.
But Hitler could only destroy the Soviets IF the Japanese kept Stalin's Far East Army tied down there.
But after Zhukov defeated the Japanese at Khalkhin Gol in 1939, most Japanese leaders lost enthusiasm for tangling with the Soviets again.
So, in their internal debates during the summer and fall of 1941, those Japanese officials who favored attacking the Soviets again (the foreign minister & army officers) were overruled and removed by those (the Navy)who favored attacking south and east.
Hense Japan decided to attack the Phillippines & Pearl Harbor, while Stalin was left free to transport his Far East divisions west for the Battle of Moscow in late 1941. After that, Hitler was doomed to eventually lose.
Well, put.
There was also the 'Natural Resources' (OIL) dimension in the debate that argued that the Dutch East Indies was the obvious direction to redress Japan's needs. In order to go there, you have to deal with American forces in the Philippines. In order to deal with US Forces in the PI you have to neutralize the US battlefleet at Pearl (Yamamoto's contribution). But this 'Southern Strategy' only really becomes apparent after Hitler overruns the Low Countries & France (1940) thereby making the French (Indochina) & East Indies (Holland) colonial holdings easy pickings.
I guess that the Japanese Army's relative lack of mechanization made them somewhat immune to the Oil-argument, insitutionally-speaking. Until mid-1940, that is.
I happened to run across the actual numbers.
"In a series of show trials, Stalin subjected nearly half of his officer corps to prosecution, relief from command, and, in many cases, death by execution.
"By 1938, some 35,000 officers out of a total corps of 80,000 had been purged, including:..."
"...With so many senior commanders liquidated, [Stalin's]fromidable force of some 5.37 million soldiers was largely leaderless and therefore vulnerable."
Every serious historian who tries to plumb the depths of President Roosevelt's mind comes away shaking his head, saying it's a complete cipher -- no way to say what FDR was really thinking.
So I'm going to rush in where angels fear to tread, and say I think Roosevelt suckered the Japanese into attacking south and east instead of north.
I also think Hitler had only himself to blame, since up until the battle of Moscow, Hitler was utterly confident he could defeat the Soviets on his own -- didn't need Japanese help.
Indeed, I doubt if Hitler even knew about Stalin's Far East Army, or the battle of Khalkhin Gol, since Stalin's counterattack at Moscow came as a complete surprise to German war planners.
The Japanese assaulted some of the East Indies oil fields by parachute. Even so, the allies (at American instigation) managed to sabotage the oil fields making them unproductive for many months. That little tidbit sort of supports your contention about Roosevelt.
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