This Theologian Has An Answer To Atheists’ Claims That Evil Disproves God

The Federalist ^ | January 3, 2018 | John Sweeney

[impactplayer]

Suffering alone is a tragedy - shared suffering can become a blessing. Find others in a similar situation - spend time together - the load is lighter and the friendships invaluable.

[M Kehoe]

Hi.

Imho, the universe is structured in binary code.

0,1 on off, in out, up down, hot COLD..
Good and evil.

5.56mm

[Bob434]

interesting thoughts Campion

Being all powerful doesn’t mean there are things God can’t do- We know He can’t lie- Can’t act contrary to His essence- His being-

He also can’t allow sin to go unpunished because it is against His moral nature to do so. Lik you said- The only way to prevent all suffering and evils would be to make us all basically robots with no free will choice- We woudl be forced to obey at all times in order to prevent evil from occuring- But since there is Evil- God MUST punish the evil for the sake of all, which is summed up nicely in the following:

{{Five: God’s commitment to each community, entails some actions on His part to maintain the basis of community.

God builds human society with structures of rewards, censure, legal process, accountability, correction, reform and reinstatement, reconciliation, and nurture. These structures serve (basically) to provide for continuance of human life under adequate conditions.}}

http://christianthinktank.com/whyjust.html

[b4me]

experienced what you wrote of. was my one chance of being a parent.

God never said life would be easy or fun. We are here at His will and it’s an insult to God when we live in questioning why He did things or allowed things (natural or man made).
He tells us to test Him on tithing, but all else we question is just us not casting our cares on Him. He tells us to bring Him our problems and worries and let Him reveal to us the answers in His perfect timing.

I spent years wondering and hurting over all sorts of loss and “bad” things in my life. I begged God for answers why. Gradually as I realized I’ll never figure it out on my own and trusted He had a reason even if I never understood it, I realized the more time I waste wondering why, the more I am out of the loop of things God wants me to focus on and grow into or do with the rest of my moments of breath. Its good now to feel peace in the midst of loss and trials and storms of life.
God’s peace be with you.

[enotheisen]

If there is no God then how do we define evil. Without God the concept of Evil/Suffering is a societal construct. Pain cannot be the source for the definition as some societies have relished pain as a way of improvement. “No Pain No Gain”.

There are presumptions associated with any definition of Evil. One such presumption is that there must be something that is not evil. Evil as a concept must be relative to the opposite,i.e., Not Evil (Good).

Without defining the opposite of evil the term is meaningless. Society cannot define the opposite as that definition would need to be defined by consensus. As such anyone with any amount of freedom could disagree and redefine Evil as something else hoping that the consensus would change. If in fact that is the case then Ted Bundy and and Charles Manson were individuals exercising their freedom to change the definition of Evil. Islam defines murder of non-Muslim innocents as a “Good”. Most of the world disagrees with them but that too is irrelevant. Humankind has no right to impose its values on Islam or so Islam says.

The only way you can concretely define Evil is to have a moral standard outside humankind that can be used to compare an action to so as to define its relative value. God provides that standard. In the Ten Words of Exodus 19 and 20 we learn of God’s character traits. He works and He rests. He respects family just as He respects the persons of the Trinity. He is life and therefore abhors murder. He is faithful in His relationships in the trinity and expects faithfulness in our relationships in the family. He provides everything and abhors theft and covetousness. He is truth and abhors lies. These characteristics are the basis of defining evil.

The atheist will not accept this definition not because it is false but rather because it is true and that would require them view themselves as accountable to God. Contrary to their belief, they are already accountable to God and will see that when they leave this life.

[Bob434]

[[Without God the concept of Evil/Suffering is a societal construct]]

Subjective societal construct at hat- We’re at the whims of those that think they know better than we do what our morality should be- but the problem is their idea of morality is purely subjective- not objective- Only a truly moral agent can construct a truly objective and fair morality- ie God-

[[Society cannot define the opposite as that definition would need to be defined by consensus.]]

Subjective consensus- just look at the ‘consensus’ on gay marriage (by the supreme court)- they threw out objective morality and decided based solely on their subjective feelings on the issue which were contrary to the word of God and His objective morality

[[As such anyone with any amount of freedom could disagree and redefine Evil as something else]]

Exactly- subjective decisions-

[[The only way you can concretely define Evil is to have a moral standard outside humankind that can be used to compare an action to so as to define its relative value.]]

Exactly- a God incapable of immorality is the only One capable of objective morality 100% of the time

[[covetousness]]

The root of all evil- A Word we don’t think about often- people will often say “Pray for me I am an ____ fill in blank- ie angry person, hateful person, jealous person etc” but we seldom admit to being covetous- but most sins stem from coveting when it comes right down to it-

[[The atheist will not accept this definition not because it is false but rather because it is true and that would require them view themselves as accountable to God.]]

Bingo- there are no true atheists- there are only those who ignore the promptings of the Holy Spirit, and declare that God doesn’t exist- for the very reason you stated- The Holy spirit witnesses to EVERY soul the existence of God- Even to atheists- There are no exceptions- The Atheist however has learned to ignore this witness of the Holy Spirit in their lives, again, for the very reason you point out

[Avalon Memories]

Where are we before we are born?

How does the concept of free will square with the fact that much of who we are is determined before we are born by our genetics, and the family and circumstances into which we are born. By the time we become adults, our genetics and the environment in which we grew up shape our lives.

If you have a birth defect, where is the free will in that?

You will be born into a particular race. Where is the free will in that?

Despite modern nonsense about gender fluidity, you will be born male or female. Where is the free will in that?

You will be born rich, middle class or poor, and into a family that practices one of the numerous human religions, or no religion at all. Where is the free will in that?

You will be born with some talents that may or may not ever be developed due to how you are raised. Where is the free will in that?

The family into which you were born will provide you with educational opportunities or none. Where is the free will in that?

Your parents might be loving and nurturing, or be cruel monsters who kill you in your childhood. Where is the free will in that?

I could go on, but hope the point is made.

[Jim W N]

Let me put it this way. Atheism, like Leftism, is irrational. Neither can win the debate in the forum of ideas because the irrationality of the lies they adhere to is defeated by the rationality of the truth.

I’m sure there are atheists who don’t care about their “rationality” or “winning the debate in the forum of ideas”. They just say, “I don’t care, I just don’t believe there is a God.” Well, those folks are not necessarily claiming that atheism is reasonable or rational - they just don’t care. So a discussion with them is futile.

Are you one that cares about atheism being rational and claims that atheism is rational?

[cranked]

Atheism, a religious belief system within itself, needs to get a grip because they apparently do not understand the great design.....to know love, one must know the opposite: evil - do they or anyone else not truly believe that the great ‘I AM’ did not know this before laying everything in place?

[7thson]

As Jesus stated, you do not light a lamp and then hide it under a basket. You bring these examples of truely evil people and expect us to believe they believed in the “goodness” of their actions. Yet, they acted in such a way to hide their “goodness” from the world, to keep it secret with only a select few knowing. Hiding the lamp under a basket. These people you used as examples were evil. However, because God is all-good, all-powerful, and just, if on their deathbeds they truely repented and turned their lives over to Christ, they would be saved. The workers in the vineyard.

[tumblindice]

We have a Religion forum. Why isn’t this there?

[Moonman62]

Alvin Plantinga already tackled this problem.

[IrishBrigade]

‘Are you one that cares about atheism being rational and claims that atheism is rational?’

any set of beliefs can be derived from reason; agnosticism (I actually don’t believe any such thing as atheism exists except in the form of nihilism)appears to employ reason to a greater extent than dogmatic credence, because it allows that it may be incorrect, and thus open to logical argument...faith, however it is defined, can be derived rationally as well, but it tends toward lack of self examination if employed in too doctrinal a formation...

the agnostic says, quite directly, that metaphysical existences are not themselves observable, and metrics to define them are unavailable; no agnostic worthy of the name opines, ipso facto, that this or that is the immutable truth, and thus factors out the charge of irrationality regarding counter arguments...

[IrishBrigade]

‘Apart from a transcendent God what makes anything “right”, “wrong” or “evil”?’

think of whatever it is that you would not want others, in the normal course of events, to do to you, and thus refrain yourself from doing likewise to those others...’right, wrong, or evil’ is breaking that simple code...

[perez24]

Substitute “Koran” for “Bible” and “Christians” for “irrational atheists” and see if you would agree with the statement.

Trying to argue your point by citing the Bible doesn’t work if the other person doesn’t agree with the Bible.

Heck we Christians have arguments over what the Bible means and we all believe in it!

[Jim W N]

The Bible is a good start because it is God’s Word inspired and written by the Holy Spirit. The Bible is what changes lives. So, yes, you should start with the Bible and pray for wisdom.

The Word of God is your sword. Don’t lay it down.

[circlecity]

"think of whatever it is that you would not want others, in the normal course of events, to do to you, and thus refrain yourself from doing likewise to those others...’right, wrong, or evil’ is breaking that simple code..."

If there was no God what would make that true? The big fish eat the little fish - are big fish evil? God is what makes the golden rule an aspect of morality. Apart from God, might makes right and what's right is what you can get away with.

[IrishBrigade]

‘If there was no God what would make that true?’

I stated ‘don’t do to others what you don’t want them to do to you’; this is the very basis for natural enemies to form alliances that enable cultures and civilizations to thrive...it is a very basic and human self preservation ethic; why is it necessary to postulate a deity to provide instruction into what is,after all, basic instinct...?

[iowamark]

Peter Kreeft’s ‘Twenty Arguments for the Existence of God’:

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm

[tjd1454]

My very bright son-in-law, Bible college graduate, came out as an atheist. I fear he is swaying my daughter (also Bible college grad) to his way of thinking. He kept me up until after 4AM once, peppering me with all the usual atheist arguments. I held my ground, as best I could. Probably could have done better, having a Ph.D. in Theology and all. No chance I would see any truth in his arguments, not so much because of “book learning” but from a lifetime of Christian experience. Not to downplay what I consider to be irrefutable arguments for God’s existence, as pointed out by this quote from a former atheist: “Former skeptical journalist-turned Christian apologist Lee Strobel confessed: ‘To continue in atheism, I would need to believe that nothing produces everything, non-life produces life, randomness produces fine-tuning, chaos produces information, unconsciousness produces consciousness, and non-reason produces reason,” he wrote. “I simply didn’t have that much faith”’”