Former Trump national security adviser Mike Flynn says it's time to stop sending Ukraine weapons

Illegally. No international bodies, including the UN, recognize the “annexation.” According to you, Ukraine has no say in the matter. Whatever Russia wants, Russia gets, eh?

The UN doesn't recognize Israel's "occupied territories" from the 6 Day War and control over the Golan Heights. China has Tibet and took over Hong Kong in violation of the agreement with the UK. Russia has part of Karelia taken from Finland. I could provide a list of territorial disputes involving most of the countries in the world, including the US and most of Europe.

For someone who claims to be knowledgeable about history, you are either ill-informed or hopelessly naive about realpolitik.

Get real. Ukraine was supposed to attack a nuclear power that was on record that Ukraine was illegitimate and had no right to exist as an independent and sovereign nation? And while Ukraine was in the midst of a civil war? Again, get real.

So you admit what is going on in Donbass is a civil war. Good start. Russia wants them to be independent states now that Ukraine failed to implement the 2015 Minsk Agreement that would have given the Eastern provinces greater autonomy. The civil war was going on for over 8 years before the Russian invasion. Also, yes, Ukraine is powerless to retake Crimea. That is reality.

I don’t ignore it at all. But, it’s not right, or legal. But right and legality mean nothing to you; all you recognize is raw power. I wonder how you’ll react when China exerts raw power and starts taking Russian territory; because, you know, it will. Bullies are the same everywhere. They are always insecure, and are always just punks.

Is Israel a bully? Again, "raw power" is always a factor in territorial disputes. And there is historical context that under-girds territorial claims. Colonialism, imperialism, and wars affect territorial boundaries. Maps were redrawn after WWI and WWII with the victors often dictating boundary lines often ignoring cultural and historical factors.

Crimea was given to Ukraine by the Soviet Union in 1954. It was more of an administrative decision since Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union. Crimea was part of Russia for hundreds of years. Ukraine became a truly independent country in 1991. But it has yet to be a nation witness the civil war going on in the Eastern provinces. Others drew Ukraine's boundaries.

“The UN doesn’t recognize Israel’s “occupied territories” from the 6 Day War and control over the Golan Heights. China has Tibet and took over Hong Kong in violation of the agreement with the UK. Russia has part of Karelia taken from Finland.”

Yeah, and that does not make such “occupations” or “annexations” legitimate or right.

“So you admit what is going on in Donbass is a civil war.”

I’ve always described the separatist DPR and LPR conflict as a civil war with Ukraine.

“Russia wants them to be independent states...”

ONLY to the extent it benefits Russia; Russia doesn’t give a sh!t about the people of Donbas, but it DOES give a sh!t about the area’s natural resources, which Russia intends to control.

“Russia wants them to be independent states now that Ukraine failed to implement the 2015 Minsk Agreement that would have given the Eastern provinces greater autonomy.”

Minsk II became untenable and unenforceable due to Russian interference and meddling.

“The civil war was going on for over 8 years before the Russian invasion.”

Bullsh!t. Russia was PART of the civil war since 2014, as it illegally annexed Crimea and invaded the Donbas area back in 2014. Russia has been up to its eyeballs since 2014 in the civil war.

“Crimea was part of Russia for hundreds of years.”

Lie! It was only a part of Russia for 135 years (from 1783 to 1917); after that, it was an SSR within the USSR until 1991, and has been independent ever since. But, your hero Vlad never recognized Ukraine as being an independent and sovereign nation, and still doesn’t.

“But (Ukraine) has yet to be a nation witness the civil war going on in the Eastern provinces.”

Ah, so any nation that has a civil war within its borders is not a nation? You have just invalidated most of the nations on earth at one time or another.

Moreover, your use of Israel as an example is misleading (which is something you usually resort to). Israel was under almost constant bombardment from the Golan Heights (Syria). So, it occupied the Golan Heights to eliminate the constant bombardment. Does Israel regularly initiate offensive bombardment of Syria from the Golan Heights? No, of course not. Was Russia regularly shelled by Ukraine ANYWHERE along its border? No, of course not.

Russia is the bully that steals smaller and weaker kids’ lunch money,and then dares them to do something about it. And, when they do, Russia — as any bully — cries Foul!

I hope Finland and Sweden join NATO. Russia will get its clock cleaned if it wants to steal THEIR lunch money. Do you have any idea how viscerally Russia is hated by Europe, especially eastern Europe? Do you think the Ukrainian war will be over if Russia gets the Donbas? (Oh, BTW: Russia fully intends to take the entire Black Sea coast of Ukraine, which extends way to the west of Crimea and Donbas.) Russia is going to face an insurrection the likes of which it has never seen before. This is Russia’s last gasp. And, do you know who is going to sweep in and clean the carcass? China. And sooner than you think.

Yeah, and that does not make such “occupations” or “annexations” legitimate or right.

So is Israel's annexation of those territories "legitimate or right?" Is Israel a bully?

I’ve always described the separatist DPR and LPR conflict as a civil war with Ukraine.

So Russian involvement doesn't change the fact that a sizeable percentage of Ukraine's populace want greater autonomy from Ukraine, up to and including secession. The MSM and others have been wont to characterize this civil war as a total Russian fabrication and not an indigenous one. Glad to hear that we agree that there is a legitimate civil war going on.

ONLY to the extent it benefits Russia; Russia doesn’t give a sh!t about the people of Donbas, but it DOES give a sh!t about the area’s natural resources, which Russia intends to control.

Doesn't change the fact that the people of Donbas want out of the corrupt state of Ukraine. No doubt the corrupt central government of Ukraine shares the Russian goal of control in order to exploit the region. Worth noting that the economic development of Ukraine occurred under the Soviet Union. Ukraine was the most populous and industrialized republic after the Russian Soviet Republic.

Minsk II became untenable and unenforceable due to Russian interference and meddling.

It was never implemented by the Ukrainian parliament. The agreement consisted of a package of measures, including a ceasefire, withdrawal of heavy weapons from the front line, release of prisoners of war, constitutional reform in Ukraine granting self-government to certain areas of Donbas and restoring control of the state border to the Ukrainian government. While fighting subsided following the agreement's signing, it never ended completely, and the agreement's provisions were never fully implemented.

Text of Minsk-2 agreement

Bullsh!t. Russia was PART of the civil war since 2014, as it illegally annexed Crimea and invaded the Donbas area back in 2014. Russia has been up to its eyeballs since 2014 in the civil war.

But you do admit that this is a civil war. The US and NATO countries have been involved in the civil war on the side of the Ukrainian government. In fact, the West helped top topple the duly elected Ukrainian government in 2014 in a coup. It sparked the separatist movement.

Lie! It was only a part of Russia for 135 years (from 1783 to 1917); after that, it was an SSR within the USSR until 1991.

If you believe that Ukraine was independent of Moscow and the USSR because it became an SSR, I have a bridge to sell to you. 1783 to 1991 is 208 years that Ukraine was part of Russia/Soviet Union.

Three Soviet general secretaries were either born or raised in Ukraine: Nikita Khrushchev, Leonid Brezhnev, and Konstantin Chernenko. The Soviet Union had ruled between 1922 and 1991 and Ukrainian-origin leaders led the country for more than half of that time. Putin acknowledged that in his article, ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians> July 12, 2021.

Ah, so any nation that has a civil war within its borders is not a nation? You have just invalidated most of the nations on earth at one time or another.

Your logic is questionable. We will have to see the results of the civil war. Crimea has already elected to rejoin Russia. The fate of the separatists on the Eastern front is still undecided. The civil war is not over.

I have been on the Golan Heights. Israel launches reprisals against its various neighbors in response to attacks against Israel, either its citizens or territory. So you have no problem with Israel incorporating the Golan Heights territory within Israel? The Occupied territories? East Jerusalem?

Was Russia regularly shelled by Ukraine ANYWHERE along its border? No, of course not.

No, but its allies in the Donbas region were for over 8 years.

Russia is the bully that steals smaller and weaker kids’ lunch money,and then dares them to do something about it. And, when they do, Russia — as any bully — cries Foul!

Is China a bully? Is the US a bully?

I hope Finland and Sweden join NATO. Russia will get its clock cleaned if it wants to steal THEIR lunch money.

As members of NATO, if Russia attempts to "steal their lunch money," Article 5 would be invoked, i.e., an attack against one is an attack against all. The US would be all in up to and including nuclear war.

Do you have any idea how viscerally Russia is hated by Europe, especially eastern Europe?

Probably better than you do. I lived in Warsaw 1981-83 during the days of Solidarnosc' and martial law. I can recall many vignettes where the average Pole expressed open protests against the Soviets and their Polish puppets, e.g., at soccer games and during the visit of John Paul II to Warsaw.

I lived in West Berlin from 1983-87 before the Wall came down. I went frequently into East Berlin and traveled thru the land corridors to Western Europe manned by Soviets and East Germans. The Soviets and their puppet governments were hated by the Germans, East and West.

I also lived in Helsinki, 1975-77, which allowed me to travel to Moscow and Leningrad a number of times. The Russian people were just as oppressed and treated as badly as their contemporaries in Eastern Europe. Life under Communism is terrible, materially and mentally. Unfortunately, we are transforming our societies in similar ways. The surveillance state now has the technology to imprison us all.

I have also lived three years in Athens and two years in Italy. I married a European. I am well acquainted with European cultures and mores. And you?

Do you think the Ukrainian war will be over if Russia gets the Donbas? (Oh, BTW: Russia fully intends to take the entire Black Sea coast of Ukraine, which extends way to the west of Crimea and Donbas.)

The war will be over when the West pressures Zelensky to compromise and meet Putin's basic demands. The war is a two-edged sword. We are being hurt economically by inflation and high energy and food prices. The Europeans will only put up with the flood of millions of Ukrainian refugees for so long. We are only two months into this and already cracks are developing in the Western alliance. Domestic political pressure is a dynamic unto itself.

I have no idea what you are basing your predictions on re Putin's objectives.

Russia is going to face an insurrection the likes of which it has never seen before. This is Russia’s last gasp. And, do you know who is going to sweep in and clean the carcass? China. And sooner than you think.

An insurrection by whom? The Russian people? And exactly how will China "sweep in and clean the carcass?" I am more concerned about our entry into a new Cold War and how that will affect the global political alignment and the dollar as the world's reserve currency.

I am amazed that people don't seem to understand the enormity of what we have done by declaring all-out economic warfare against Russia. It was poorly thought out and the unknown consequences will evolve for decades. For those of us who grew up at the height of the Cold War, the recent developments are frightening. Asymmetric warfare will prove more deadly and effective. And the coming global food crisis will result in more civil unrest and dislocation.

Are we willing to die on the hill called Ukraine?

“So is Israel’s annexation of those territories “legitimate or right?” Is Israel a bully?”

The Golan Heights were captured by Israel in the 1967 war. Israel occupied the Heights and later, in 1981 extended Israeli laws, jurisdiction and administration to the Heights. No one recognizes the Golan Heights as having been annexed to Israel, though Trump threw Israel a bone and said he recognized the Heights as being part of Israel. I don’t agree with that conclusion, and still see the Golan Heights as being Syrian territory occupied by Israel. Just as Crimea is Ukrainian territory occupied by Russia.

As for Jerusalem, it fell within the British Mandate of Palestine after WWI (having been taken over from the defeated and defunct Ottoman Empire), and remained so until 1947 when the UN created a two-state division of the Mandate, one Jewish and one Arab (Jordanian), with Jerusalem being under international control. The end of the British Mandate in 1948 immediately led to war. Israel prevailed and in 1948 declared its independence. Jerusalem then became a divided city via international agreement (not all that different from Berlin during the Cold War). Then, in 1967 Israel took control over all of Jerusalem in the Six-Day War. Jerusalem is now the capital of the State of Israel, though a UN General Assembly Resolution does not recognize it.

“So Russian involvement doesn’t change the fact that a sizeable percentage of Ukraine’s populace want greater autonomy from Ukraine, up to and including secession.”

Bullsh!t. Some people in the Donbas area may want that, but they are a small fraction of the Ukrainian population.

“Doesn’t change the fact that the people of Donbas want out of the corrupt state of Ukraine.”

No; SOME people of Donbas may want that, but THE people of Donbas (which implies all) do not.

“No doubt the corrupt central government of Ukraine shares the Russian goal of control in order to exploit the region.”

Of course the Ukrainian central government wants to control the resources within its own borders. The corrupt government of Russia thinks IT is entitled to those resources.

“Worth noting that the economic development of Ukraine occurred under the Soviet Union.”

And so did the economic downfall when the USSR collapsed.
But, so what?

“If you believe that Ukraine was independent of Moscow and the USSR because it became an SSR, I have a bridge to sell to you. 1783 to 1991 is 208 years that Ukraine was part of Russia/Soviet Union.”

Yeah, but Russia and the Soviet Union are two entirely different things, and Russia had it for 134 years, and it was an SSR for 74 years. And Moscow didn’t control much of anything (except the Orthodox Church) until the fall of the Tsar, because up until that time St. Petersburg was the capital city of Russia. And the short-lived Duma did pretty much nothing until the Bolsheviks disbanded it entirely in 1917.

“I have been on the Golan Heights. Israel launches reprisals against its various neighbors in response to attacks against Israel...”

Yeah; and are you denying Israel’s right to respond to those attacks against Israel?

“So you have no problem with Israel incorporating the Golan Heights territory within Israel? The Occupied territories? East Jerusalem?”

I have already addressed that above.

“No, but its allies in the Donbas region...”

Illegal! The Donbas region cannot enter into any legal alliance because it is not a sovereign state. Better that you say Russia’s mercenaries, because they are doing Russia’s bidding by creating a civil war in the first place.

“Is China a bully?”

Absolutely.

“Is the US a bully?”

We sure as hell have been on occasion (Dominican Republic in 1965; the Balkans in the 1990s; just to name two). But the difference is the US doesn’t subjugate its victims and inter them in gulags; rather, the US generally builds them up, bigger and better than they were before, and at great cost to the American taxpayer.

“As members of NATO, if Russia attempts to “steal their lunch money,” Article 5 would be invoked, i.e., an attack against one is an attack against all. The US would be all in up to and including nuclear war.”

Yeah, and where will you be? I doubt you’d fight for your beloved Russia. No, you don’t have that kind of spirit in you. You’d get out of Dodge; probably run to South America. Venezuela, I think.

“I have no idea what you are basing your predictions on re Putin’s objectives.”

His spokespeople are quite clear about it. And, they can say NOTHING without Putin’s approval.

“The war will be over when the West pressures Zelensky to compromise and meet Putin’s basic demands.”

Ah, I see: It is the West’s fault for Putin invading a smaller and weaker neighbor that posed no real threat to Russia. Can you be any more transparent?

You’re a communist, aren’t you? At the very least you are a socialist.

“Are we willing to die on the hill called Ukraine?”

If you had read any of my previous comments on FR you’d know that I am firmly against putting American boots on the ground in Ukraine or American helmets in the air above Ukraine. But I have no problem at all arming Ukraine to the teeth so they can fight against the aggressor.

And, if Russia starts “the big dance,” then we’ll put on our shoes and tango.

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