Posted on 08/30/2023 5:14:39 PM PDT by ransomnote
| In the General/Chat forum, on a thread titled MORE EVIDENCE - 2 Miles from Lahaina Fire A Melted Car Surrounded by Gravel! D.E.W. or What? (IMAGES from video and video links), chuck allen wrote: |
You don’t need much fuel. Follow the bouncing ball.. Electric line ignites grass fire, winds spread grass fire, 700 degree grass fire ignites car that burns at 1500 degrees, glass breaks and aluminum melts. Front street in Lahaina with hundreds of cars and buildings on fire simultaneously was probably burning hot enough to melt damn near anything within a hundred yards. I’ve seen cars in flames with nary a grass or forest fire in sight. Let alone a DEW. My Attorney Father-in Law taught me a lesson long ago, “Shit happens.” |
It doesn't have to be a D.E.W. but this fire, and the pictures at the bottom of my post of the 2018 Paradise fire are not explained by standard 'car fire'.
Glass melted. The front windshield melted in the center of the car and in the video they film down a door sill where the window used to be, and you can (barely) see the sheen of melted glass sticking to one side of the door.
By your theory the upholstery heated the steel roof enough to melt/burn the aluminum roof rack so it crumbles to the touch? The engine compartment is hooded and enclosed by steal likely doesn't get enough oxygen to fuel a fire that hot and that long to leave just debris behind. But if it did, what reduced the tires to ashes? An engine fire burned the rear wheels? The interior or engine of the car is on fire, how does the tire bolted to the back of the outside of the car turn to dust, along with both rear wheels?
The fire was much hotter than 1500 degrees and burned consistently hot enough to melt all but the steel of the car. Not enough fuel, oxygen or heat.
You believe this was a D.E.W.?
Hello gentle FReeQs. :DI have to leave for a bit so please pardon my manners as I repurpose a post I sent someone else. Leftovers...I know...but I got errands to run. *the cat just gave me the stink eye*
Just a quick note -using internet byte that says car fires burn at 1500. Not hot enough for glass to melt as it did. Here's that post from another thread. Please entertain the cat while I'm gone. :D
In the General/Chat forum, on a thread titled MORE EVIDENCE - 2 Miles from Lahaina Fire A Melted Car Surrounded by Gravel! D.E.W. or What? (IMAGES from video and video links), ransomnote wrote:
In the General/Chat forum, on a thread titled MORE EVIDENCE - 2 Miles from Lahaina Fire A Melted Car Surrounded by Gravel! D.E.W. or What? (IMAGES from video and video links), chuck allen wrote: You don’t need much fuel. Follow the bouncing ball..
Electric line ignites grass fire, winds spread grass fire, 700 degree grass fire ignites car that burns at 1500 degrees, glass breaks and aluminum melts. Front street in Lahaina with hundreds of cars and buildings on fire simultaneously was probably burning hot enough to melt damn near anything within a hundred yards.
I’ve seen cars in flames with nary a grass or forest fire in sight. Let alone a DEW.
My Attorney Father-in Law taught me a lesson long ago, “Shit happens.”
It doesn't have to be a D.E.W. but this fire, and the pictures at the bottom of my post of the 2018 Paradise fire are not explained by standard 'car fire'.
Glass melted. The front windshield melted in the center of the car and in the video they film down a door sill where the window used to be, and you can (barely) see the sheen of melted glass sticking to one side of the door.
By your theory the upholstery heated the steel roof not enough and long enough to melt/burn the aluminum roof rack so it crumbles to the touch? The engine compartment is hooded and enclosed by steel likely doesn't get enough oxygen to fuel a fire that hot and that long to leave just debris behind (comment made by a dude in the video). But if it did, what reduced the tires to ashes? An engine fire burned the rear wheels? Burning upholstery in the cabin burned the tires? The interior or engine of the car is on fire, how does the tire bolted to the back of the outside of the car turn to dust, along with both rear wheels?
The fire was much hotter than 1500 degrees and burned consistently hot enough to melt all but the steel of the car. Not enough fuel, oxygen or heat.
The wind was blowing and there is enough fuel to have caused the damage and add to it the aluminum was possibly an alloy with magnesium the fire would really get going hot.
The car companies used Magnesium to reduce weight for better gas millage.
Hello gentle FReeQs. :DI have to leave for a bit so please pardon my manners as I repurpose a post I sent someone else. Leftovers...I know...but I got errands to run. *the cat just gave me the stink eye*
Just a quick note -using internet byte that says car fires burn at 1500. Not hot enough for glass to melt as it did. Here's that post from another thread. Please entertain the cat while I'm gone. :D
In the General/Chat forum, on a thread titled MORE EVIDENCE - 2 Miles from Lahaina Fire A Melted Car Surrounded by Gravel! D.E.W. or What? (IMAGES from video and video links), ransomnote wrote:
In the General/Chat forum, on a thread titled MORE EVIDENCE - 2 Miles from Lahaina Fire A Melted Car Surrounded by Gravel! D.E.W. or What? (IMAGES from video and video links), chuck allen wrote: You don’t need much fuel. Follow the bouncing ball..
Electric line ignites grass fire, winds spread grass fire, 700 degree grass fire ignites car that burns at 1500 degrees, glass breaks and aluminum melts. Front street in Lahaina with hundreds of cars and buildings on fire simultaneously was probably burning hot enough to melt damn near anything within a hundred yards.
I’ve seen cars in flames with nary a grass or forest fire in sight. Let alone a DEW.
My Attorney Father-in Law taught me a lesson long ago, “Shit happens.”
It doesn't have to be a D.E.W. but this fire, and the pictures at the bottom of my post of the 2018 Paradise fire are not explained by standard 'car fire'.
Glass melted. The front windshield melted in the center of the car and in the video they film down a door sill where the window used to be, and you can (barely) see the sheen of melted glass sticking to one side of the door.
By your theory the upholstery heated the steel roof not enough and long enough to melt/burn the aluminum roof rack so it crumbles to the touch? The engine compartment is hooded and enclosed by steel likely doesn't get enough oxygen to fuel a fire that hot and that long to leave just debris behind (comment made by a dude in the video). But if it did, what reduced the tires to ashes? An engine fire burned the rear wheels? Burning upholstery in the cabin burned the tires? The interior or engine of the car is on fire, how does the tire bolted to the back of the outside of the car turn to dust, along with both rear wheels?
The fire was much hotter than 1500 degrees and burned consistently hot enough to melt all but the steel of the car. Not enough fuel, oxygen or heat.
“ By your theory”
Yes. Logic, not emotion.
I live in the state of Hawaii. I see plenty of abandoned vehicles in view of the road, especially in back road areas where tourists don’t venture and where homeless meth heads camp. Cars end up burnt by druggies for a variety of reasons, some intentionally and some accidentally. Meth heads and abandoned vehicles go together like apple pie and ice cream.
That’s the paradise fire - weird they named it ‘Camp Fire’.
That fire was abnormal and that’s why I posted links to images of it at the bottom of my thread post.
In 1998 a grass fire ignited 7 million tires at a tire dump in Tracy, California. It was extinguished after 26 months.
So grass can and have ignited tires before and they tend to continue burning until deprived of oxygen.
I know. I posted it to show the photos of melted aluminum and cars burnt to a crisp
Same thing happened to cars burned in the Marshall fire in Colorado.
Do yourself a favor and google “Jeep on fire” and peruse the images. Some spectacular burning vehicles pics are there, I don’t think any of them started via grass fire. Yes some of those Jeep fire pics would have melted glass and aluminum. A dropped lit cigarette butt can start a raging 1500 degree car fire in minutes.
200,000+ vehicle fires per year in the USA...about 6% of those (7,000+) are caused by “outside/external sources of ignition” (i.e. wildfires, etc.). So “Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate” applies here...(Occam’s Razor). Apply the stats & common sense along with Post #67 on this thread.
https://www.livescience.com/what-is-occams-razor
https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/occam.html
Tires burn very hot, hot enough to melt alloy wheels.
I couldn’t tell you how many burned vehicles I’ve seen on shoulders of interstate highways during my trucking career. Often the burning vehicle starts the grass next to the shoulder on fire.
A boss I had from 02 to 07 had a nice farm shop. One night his son’s stone cold 99 F150 simply caught fire and burned the shop down.
He said he awoke about 2am to his dog outside barking. At the moment he opened his eyes, he saw a flickering orange glow on tbe bedroom wall, jumped out of bed to see flames coming out of the roof the shop. Two semi tractors in the back portion had a lot of fuel in them. But by the time the fire dept got there they were ablaze too.
Except that this appeared to have been grassland, not forest.
From Dragos post #74 NFPA Research pg. 9
“Tires can be the cause of the fire, a fuel or both. Figure 11 shows that tires were the first item ignited in 30% of Large Truck fires and 12% of Bus fires.”
The car itself burns at 1500 degrees once ignited, which melts aluminum. Doesn’t matter what started it, grass or cigarette butt.
“The windshield melts at a temperature of 2200 degrees Fahrenheit”
Silica melts at that temp, but windshields are only 60 to 70% silica. Other materials are added to bring the melt point down to 1000F to reduce the energy costs in manufacturing. The plastic safety coating also contributes to the melting of windshields when it burns off in a fully involved car fire.
I suppose the front grill is more likely. The car had probably been driven up the hill on that bypass road escaping the fire, directly into the downslope whole gale winds, with wood embers (900°F - 1650°F) and ash flying all about. The ash and embers lodged into the grill, likely plastic, and continued producing plenty of heat due to the stoking by the wind. Hard plastics ignition temperature is 416°F to 580°F. The grill ignited and eventually the flames were driven to ignite either an oily surface of the engine or the hoses or wires, or the boots around the shocks, or all of these. The smoke or flames forced the driver to stop, who was fortunately safely away from the worst of the fire by then. Being Hawaii, someone else, seeing the car's occupants near the burning car, probably stopped and gave them a ride.
The flames spread to the tires. Tires burn; I wouldn't call it extreme heat that's necessary to start vulcanized rubber on fire. Flame temperatures, especially when wind blown, are easily in the 800°F - 900°F range to do this. Once the tires were on fire, they would generate all the heat necessary to decompose or melt the non-ferrous metal alloys of the wheels & engine.
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