Eleven Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage - Dobson

www.family.org ^ | May 23, 2004 | Dr. James Dobson

[CalifornianConservative]

Interesting. My understanding was that Jesus doesn't like masturbation because of the images conjured up in our minds during the act itself -- i.e. His teaching on the true meaning of "lust" is if we lust after someone in our hearts, we have committed a sin.

[Torie]

Ah, so it is not gay marriage in and of itself. Why has Georgia gone down the crapper? Don't you think this has a lot more to do with societal moreys in general, and to economics, than to anything really related to gays?

[jwalsh07]

Of course, one need only look at US Stats since LBJ destroyed the urban family. But poor public policy is not a cause for more bad public policy. We're gonna go nowhere here though, we look at this one through vastly different prisms.

No problem, you're still the best webbed friend I ever had. :-}

[Dante3]

And what is the next step? Legalizing polygamy? Incest? Marriage to ones pet and pet rock? Marriage should be defined as between one adult male and one adult female.

[Torie]

You just don't appreciate my kind of sense of humor, you straight man you. :)

[Joe Republc]

read posts 64 66 and 69 -- unfortunate number, that last one!

;)

[little jeremiah]

Homosexual Agenda Ping - Sounds good, maybe get Dobson's book. More ammunition. Keep in mind, they fight dirty, and lie.

Let me know if anyone wants on/off this pinglist.

[GailA]

Dr Dobson held a siminar on defense of traditional Marriage here in Memphis this weekend, 12-14,000 people, live hook up all over US, the local media whores were to busy to attend according to our local talk radio host today. Both print and electronic media were TO BUSY and to short staffed.

[little jeremiah]

It's a continuum. Sexual libertinism and the destruction of moral absolutes is what is finishing off western civilization. If and when homosexual "marriage" and the elimination of the age of consent (it's in the chute) are legalized (if!), then it will be buh-bye civilized human society and hellooo barbarian totalitarianism!

[Joe Republc]

Here's more of Romans 1, New American Std.

For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, .... 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.


I suppose one could argue oral sex is 'unnatural', but it feels like that's stretching the point. Again, clearly homosexual is prohibited.

BTW, I listen to "Bible Answer Man" by Hank Hanegraaf (sp?). He's answered this one more than once (with some considerable discomfort, I might add.) Hank is very careful with his research, and he does NOT believe that any loving and consensual sexual expression between a married man and woman is prohibited by the Bible.


-- Joe

P.S. Romans 1, of course, has much deeper insights into our problems today. "Professing to be wise, they became fools" describes too many of our decision-makers today.

[Torie]

You're a pessimist. You do know that Periclean Athens was viewed as the cradle of Western Civilization and nascent principles of democracy don't you for about 2500 years? Well, the barbaric Spartans were gay too. The Romans did not seem to be too hung up about gays either. Whatever.

[kpp_kpp]

(my last response on this topic)

What was Paul referring to if not the same sexual acts that the homosexual men he was discussing previously?

You're correct, reading it in context is important. If one starts pulling phrases out of the Bible they can make it say anything they want. So in context here Paul is referring to lesbianism and homosexuality.

means that it is something other than normal sexuality, no?

Any sexual activity outside the bound of marriage is against the design/intent. But within marriage I'd have to agree with those who say the Bible is silent on the topic. The exception being 1Cor 7:3,4 - and that is just saying it must be consensual.

If I wanted to push it I'd say the phrase "Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her" is not referring to plain-old intercourse. But I won't go there.

[supercat]

I hear what you're saying. But the problem goes way beyond gay marriage.

It does indeed. But I think one can very reasonably say--without being hateful--that allowing people to call themselves "married" who are overtly incapable(*) of becoming a mother and father--will make it harder to reestablish what marriage is really about.

(*) Much of society is dependant upon 'polite fictions' to lubricate the social fabric. Even if a husband and wife have no intention of having children, one can still plausibly believe that they might nonetheless become mother and father. Such a belief, however, becomes untenable with same-sex couples.

To use yet another analogy, there is a tendency that property which is severely run-down or distressed tends to attract more vandals than property which looks like it's actively maintained. Someone who is in a park that's absolutely prisine may be averse to littering, but the same person, if in a park with piles of litter all around, may have little qualm throwing more junk onto the piles. If the park is clean except for one candy bar wrapper and there aren't any trash cans nearby, a mildly-well meaning person might hide it. This wouldn't solve the problem of the existing litter, but it may help avoid further litter.

Polite fictions can't provide structural strength to society, but they can help stem exponential breakdown. Unfortunately, by making society's "litter" less obvious, polite fictions sometimes cause people to think they can litter without being noticed. Unfortunately, such people, while often caught, are seldom contrite.

[familyop]

I'm in favor of the Marriage Amendment.

But Dr. Dobson and his romantics already helped to pave the way for serial polygamy. They paved the the way to the filthy society that we have with the bodies of many fathers who entered marriage with a much older philosophy than was taught to their wives.

They did so by supporting the N.O.W. laws introduced by Paul Wellstone and his friends (Donna Shalala's hordes) during the Clinton Administration.

I just want to be the first to say, "I told you so" after so many others said the same during the 1990s.

We can pass the Marriage Amendment, sooner or later, if we keep trying. But there's much more work to do than that. Most American families are already devasted by the divorce industry and the horrid legions of social programs that support the "independence" of so many singles--pitiful victims, all.

[Eastbound]

"...King James Bible where Paul is talking about those people who have been saved and he mentions the word "catamite"."

Okay, thanks for the commentary, CC. My Bible search function isn't working for some reason and I couldn't find the word.

[stainlessbanner]

bttt

[little jeremiah]

I'm not saying that no society ever engaged in same sex acts, or that such engagement instantaneously caused downfall and destruction within 24 hours. Rome was gradually infected by deviancy, to its downfall. And same sex acts were not generally accepted by all, they were considered an abomination by many.

[familyop]

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) :

Catamite \Cat"a*mite\, n. [L. Catamitus, an old form of
Ganymedes Ganymede, Gr. ?.]
A boy kept for unnatural purposes.

Here are a few verses from the King James, including the one you were discussing.

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is
abomination." (Leviticus 18:22, King James)

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman,
both of them have committed an abomination: they shall
surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
(Leviticus 20:13, King James)

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the
kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor
idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of
themselves with mankind," (1 Corinthians 6:9, King James)

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for
even their women did change the natural use into that which
is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the
woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men
working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves
that recompence of their error which was meet"
(Romans 1:26-27, King James)

Here's one interesting thing about the New International Version.

The NIV, in Deuteronomy 23:17, says, "No Israelite man or woman
is to become a shrine prostitute."

The KJV says in Deuteronomy 23:17, "There shall be no whore of
the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel."
"Sodomite" is a word that I haven't found in the NIV.

A feminist lesbian named Virginia Mollenkott helped to write the
NIV. Here's some info on Mollenkott.

The New International Version - 1978
http://www.revelationwebsite.co.uk/index1/kjv/mouth4.htm#niv

Let's read something else Ms. Mollenkott had to say.

{2}Virginia Mollenkott wrote, in a letter to Christian
Century (March 7, 1984, p. 252), "I am beginning to
wonder whether indeed Christianity is patriarchal to its
very core. If so, count me out. Some of us may be forced
to leave Christianity in order to participate in Jesus'
discipleship of equals."

I saw that on the following book page.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cbmw/rbmw/chapter26.html
"Charity, Clarity, and Hope: The Controversy and the Cause of
Christ"
John Piper and Wayne Grudem

"Two New Organizations: Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood
Christians for Biblical Equality"

(Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood
A Response to Evangelical Feminism
Wayne Grudem and John Piper)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And that's the older NIV, by the way--not the new "gender
inclusive" version. Here are a few more verses that many misconstrue.

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (Matthew 19:16-19, King James).

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" (Matthew 5:17, King James).

"Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him" (Luke 17:3-4, KJV).

[PetroniusMaximus]

***I can't read that stuff.***

You should - to be educated on the topic.


***paya boat load of taxes***

Me too.


***Read the "Little House Books" ***

You mean back when they studied the Bible as part of the curriculum and could still legally pray in schools?

[Pegita]

Genesis 1:27-28

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

And God blessed them, and God said to them,

"Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

Only several hundred words into the Bible, and God has created man and woman; He exhorts them to bring forth children; He sends them over all the earth and charges them to stewardship of all resources.

This short passage defines marriage; condemns abortion; and puts man in charge of the environment. Great is the wisdom of the Lord.