USAF to buy 'hundreds' of STOVL JSFs, Gen. Jumper says

"Again, you're full of crap"

Um hmm. Are you really denying the USMC has no plan in place to phase out the AV-8B?

And by the way, your pictures were taken just a couple months ago. And they show each aircraft carrying exactly one bomb under one wing, and a Litening II targeting pod under the other. Of course, since AV-8B's didn't start carrying the Litening Pod until 2003, they could only drop dumb bombs when OEF initiated. And since we didn't have any bases at Kandahar during the first few months of the war and Harriers were forced to operate from ships, Criminal Number 18F was exactly right in his assessment. However, AV-8B's are doing great now that they can operate from bases close to the frontlines. But they are still relatively limited in payload.

I'm not the one to ask, but clearly there are people on this thread who have given it some thought and can probably give you an exact number. I know what you mean: we would send in a B-2 long before we'd ever send in an F-14. But...a better question might be how many F-14s would you need to make sure the B-2 was able to carry out its mission and return to base? Once it got there woke up their defenses, there are only so many ways back out.

I like the B-2, but it has its limits. I've heard of one proposal for retrofitting the B-1 that included using the F-22's engines and adding some air to air. I like that a lot better: low RCS, very fast, manuverable, and it can shoot back.

Dude, I was there on the ground and had these gimmicks in support. They should stick to flying airshows and impressing the public with all the noise they can make standing still.

I also worked in FOB for a while, and in CJSOTF for a week or so after my medevac; I saw what they could do, at least for our teams in their camps or on the road. One pass, one bomb, haul ass. Looks like the one in your refuel picture is carrying a rocket pod and gun and the Paveway 500-lb -- we never had 'em with rockets. They were carrying defensive pods and (one?) Sidewinder AAM instead. I have some pics of them from the ground but I might not be able to make out what is on the stations (you know the picture -- a little dart-shaped speck in the middle of a bunch of blue sky).

Paveway requires someone on the ground (or in another aircraft) to lase. Early 1970s technology and not accurate enough to use danger close, unlike, say, the GBU-31. Which this airshow queen can't lift and couldn't program if it did. I'm surprised that any Paveways are still around, but not surprised that it's the Marines that are stuck with them. I guess it's what you do if they're not going to rewire the Harriers for JDAMs, now that some smaller ones are coming on line like the GBU-38 (now THAT would be the ticket for troops in contact).

Our Harriers carried regular slick bombs, what is it, MK-83 1,000 lb, one each. I know what they had for ordnance from listening to the flight leader tell us: "Callsign, flight of two Harriers, one MK-83 each, tell us where you want it and we're outa here."

I will say this for the Marine Harriers -- the pilots are good. The bombs might be dumb but in open terrain they can put them where they need to go. If only we always had open terrain! And in very restricted terrain, deep valleys etc., any kind of air support is hard.

"Five Hour Missions" -- only by air refueling. How many times do they have to hit the tanker? Anyway, that doesn't translate to anywhere near five hours over troops in contact, because the distances are large and the tanker has to orbit someplace safe (I don't want to get more specific than that). So if they have the tanker, they have one pass and have to haul ass to the tanker. But they're winchester anyway! If there's no tanker up, or if it has other priorities, then what's flight duration? 45 minutes? That doesn't even get them to the team in contact and back.

There was no MEU over there when I was there, so maybe they weren't being resourced or something, but we would rather have in this order: A-10s, Apaches (which are also load limited by the altitude, and also can't hang around), anything with JDAMs, AC-130 (depending on terrain), Euro F-16s, and dead last, Harriers. Which were still better than the 60mm mortar and small arms we could take with us.

Most balls? B-1 crews who came down on the deck for us. We also got them to "boom" a valley. When we were done intimidating people, we paid for a lot of broken windows.

Least balls? slick C-130 pilot who called out ground fire in a secure area. (There was no ground fire. Our guys were standing there watching him depart. I think he wanted a medal or something, or overreacted to a glint) and the whole command running the C-130s. If you wanted something hauled, you needed to get the MC-130s to do it cause for the USAF trash haulers, the runway was too rough, the crater wasn't fixed right, there were too many enemy in the hills, I lost my combat vagisil, it just went on and on....

We had no naval air apart from the Harriers. Guys before me who had naval air liked it, particularly F-18s and Bombcats with JDAMs. They had problems because we were so very far from the sea. At least the Marines were willing to base their Harriers in country, I'll say that for them.

As far as Kandahar is concerned, I did spend three days there waiting for a ride to where the war was, in Nov. 2002. Dull place, not much happening then. Sherzai the warlord has a nice junkyard, and some Marines that had been there earlier had put a porta-potty in the middle of a burnt-out Antonov, which I thought was funny. The 82nd and Romanians were there and the Marines gone at the time.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

The B-2 and F-14 are completely different platforms. The B-2 is a deep strike strategic bomber. The F-14 was designed as a long-range stand off interceptor for fleet protection. My point to the other poster was that you can't compare the two in purpose or capabilities. F-14s would be lucky to make it beyond the coast line of a major player. The F-14's Phoenix missle system is still an impressive piece of work.

B-2s travel alone. Stealth is their only defense. You would never fly B-2s in more than a single ship mission. The F-22s have some stealth and you could use them in theatre as some protection in case of an emergency, but to group a non-stealthy aircraft with stealth aircraft would go completely against the phillosophy behind the B-2 program. In addition, the B-2s can fly from Whiteman AFB to just about any point in the world and back with a few refuels in friendly territory. The F-14s are gas guzzlers.

I mean no disrespect to the Tomcat. It has earned its place in history. But it is old technology barely capable of supporting today's modern weapon systems.

The 101st had some while I was assigned to it. Fixed wing aircraft were generally pieced out to and assigned to other aviation companies. As far as I know, the OV-1s and 10s may only be in service in NG these days, if at all, or have been given to the AF. There primary role has been taken over be the UAV unit. C-21s and other small transports are still in operation, I believe, but are very few in number.

What Army squadrons operated the Bronco?

You're right, the Army never did, although Army guys flew as observers in them in Vietnam in some particular capacities, and I actually got a jump out of one once. The other services that used the Bronco (Navy, Air Force, Marines) have all given them up, in that order, I believe. The Marines used them in the Gulf War 1991/92 and phased them out thereafter -- I think. (IANAM).

The army doesn't operate the OV-1 Mohawk any more, either. (Which was built with a ground attack capability that the USAF insisted the Army stop using! They finished out their lives in the 1990s as multisensor reconnaissance aircraft). The only fixed wing Army aircraft are light transports and electronic reconnaissance aircraft, although it is a priority of the Chief of Staff to get a medium transport into service -- which will probably cause a turf battle with the USAF.

Unlike the other services' pilots, Army aviators are all trained as helicopter pilots first. There is a powerful helicopter mafia that tries to do everything with rotary wings -- which drives costs up and reliability down, like any other VTOL machine.

One lesson the Army learned in Afghanistan, which it learned again in Iraq, is that Apaches can't slug it out toe-to-toe with air defences. Not if you want to use the Apaches again afterwards, although they do a good job of keeping the crew alive.

By and large the air war was joint and well run. The Army, USAF, USN and USMC each has a slightly different philosophy but everybody drops everything to help out troops in contact or a bad medevac, or something. Usually the problem then is getting most of the helpful guys off the frequency so you can talk to the one in the best position to help!

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

For the most part, I agree with you. My only point is that, even with the impressive range and stealth of the stand alone B-2, once you know where it's been, it is possible to figure out where it's going to be and slow enough to catch. So, it may get in, but getting back out is another question. So yeah, It flies alone, but other forces, even the ancient F-14, could engage the enemy defenses and run interference for the B-2's egress.