Move Over, Irish; Italians Now Rule Boston

Associated Press ^ | Oct 5, 2004 | Jennifer Peter

[Clemenza]

Parents are from Jurzey too. Ma (Italian) from Jersey City and then North Bergen, while dad is from Downneck "Nork" (the Polish side of Independence Park, Italians lived on the other).

I was born in the garbage, er, garden state, but grew up on the good side of the Hudson River.

[RayChuang88]

What's interesting about the Italian immigrants is that they integrated into American society fairly quickly after Italians started to migrate to the USA en masse from the 1880's on. In the San Francisco area, Italians quickly became famous, especially in the bakery business (many of the best-known names of bakeries on the US West Coast were started by Italian immigrants).

Many Irish, on the other hand, had a much harder time integrating into American society, especially the Irish that arrived from the time of the infamous Potato Famine on. (The earlier Scots Irish immigrants, though, did integrate extremely well into US society; these earlier Irish immigrants were among the earliest people that started the westward migration of Americans.) The later Irish immigrants couldn't speak English well, were extremely poor and their Catholicism strongly clashed with the more dominant Protestants in the USA; as a result, the later Irish immigrants were heavily discriminated against even well into the 20th Century. Al Smith, the 1928 Democratic nominee for President, lost because even in 1928 people were not ready to accept someone who was Catholic and of Irish immigrant descent to be President.

[Clemenza]

BTW: Shouldn't your name be "Arminius?" ;-)

[Clemenza]

With all due respect to Irish American freepers, the famine Irish were some of the least educated and "troublesome" immigrants ever to land on these shores. While other ethnic groups had large entrepreneurial classes (Italians, Jews, Germans and Chinese come to mind), the famine Irish did not. Through sheer numbers (those Irish girls knew how to pop out children back in the day) they were able to take over the political machines and looked to the civil service for advancement in place of commerce.

[Betis70]

True about the education. But the famine Irish came BEFORE the Italians or Chinese. Prior to that, there was not a significant wave of non-Protestant immigrants in the US.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Santorum is a Republican. Doesn't count.

We are looking for active Dimbulb Italian politicians in NY, PA, and NJ.

[Calpernia]

Ok, Clemenza. I've lost respect for you.

First you go and put Marinara on the Pierogis.

Then you call my home garbage.

THEN you move to the left coast!!!!

::shakes head::

:)

[Calpernia]

You ain't seen Irish until you come down to Kearny Avenue in Kearny NJ. THE BEST fish and chip joints on earth :)

[RayChuang88]

With all due respect to Irish American freepers, the famine Irish were some of the least educated and "troublesome" immigrants ever to land on these shores.

The later Irish immigrants were also preyed on by the Tammany Society in New York City, and indeed, a number of people involved in the infamous Tweed Ring of the late 1860's to early 1870's were later Irish immigrants. If you're seen the movie Gangs of New York the later Irish immigrants lived a pretty tough life because others frequently shunned them.

[SoothingDave]

Isn't Santorum half-Italian?

Sounds Latin to me. ;-)

SD

[Flash Bazbeaux]

"Being of Irish descent...
I love Italian food.'"

As a Scottish-Irish mix, I can tell you that being Irish, you're going to have to learn to like someone else's ethnic food. It's either that or starve.

A google search of Italian cuisine shows 2.2 million hits.

Irish cuisine, 537, 000 hits. It could be worse, though. Scottish Cuisine only had 340,000.

[Major_Risktaker]

Come circa questo tipo.

Guido Sarducci

[x]

It took the Italians about a century to overtake the Irish. But it's a bitter victory, since the Italians themselves have largely assimilated long years ago. And there have been plenty of Irish, Polish, and Jewish immigrants in recent years -- along with West Indians, Latin Americans, Chinese, and Southeast Asians. But Italians tend not to immigrate lately, and the old neighborhood may have a very elderly and old-fashioned feel to it by now.

IIRC, both Ireland and Italy have become net recipients of immigrants rather than sources of emigration in the last ten or twenty years, but the Irish are still coming here. This is the Italian moment, but if it matters at all, the Irish, with their specialized political skills, are apt to win this tribal derby in the end.

In the "old days" an Irish-Italian wedding was regarded as a "mixed marriage." But that's long a thing of the past. The old, ethnic-dominated Catholic parishes are closing down as well, and that's a sad thing for those who remember how things were.

[x]

With all due respect to Irish American freepers, the famine Irish were some of the least educated and "troublesome" immigrants ever to land on these shores.

They've followed a different strategy, and it seems to have worked for them. They had some advantages: the fact that they were one of the first large non-Protestant groups to come here, that they arrived in such large numbers, and that they could already speak English helped them to achieve real power in politics, the unions, the Catholic Church and other institutions. But they also made good use of their advantages to overcome their disadvantages.

One interesting theory I heard is that the old 19th century lower classes of the Five Points and other neighborhoods more or less died off or didn't reproduce, and those who did survive, reproduce, and prosper already showed virtues and determination that was greater than what the most troublesome of the immigrants lacked. It sounds like something that someone should look into.

[Pharmboy]

You're too cute!

[Clemenza]

One interesting theory I heard is that the old 19th century lower classes of the Five Points and other neighborhoods more or less died off or didn't reproduce, and those who did survive, reproduce, and prosper already showed virtues and determination that was greater than what the most troublesome of the immigrants lacked. It sounds like something that someone should look into

Ah, the "natural selection" theory.

[Clemenza]

Believe me, I would LOVE to have a place in Summit or Madison or even liberal Montclair, even though I live in Belltown: ie the "Soho/Tribeca of Seattle."

[Clemenza]

the Irish are still coming here.

Actually alot of the Irish who came to New York in the 1980s-early 90s have returned to Ireland.

[buccaneer81]

In the "old days" an Irish-Italian wedding was regarded as a "mixed marriage." But that's long a thing of the past.

Hah! Not to my in-laws from my first marriage. I'm English-Scots and Catholic. My ex-wife is Italian and Catholic. My MIL said back in 1991, "Well, at least you're the right religion, but you're too white."

[CardCarryingMember.VastRightWC]

Is this related to that other thread going on right now about America's "Scotch-Italian" roots?

:-)