Lynndie England faces sentencing

Reuters ^ | 9/27/05 | Adam Tanner

[Zeroisanumber]

Why not just cut her head off, put it on a side show traveling through the desert and proclaim, "AMERICA IS JUST!"?

Disproportionate and barbaric. We have better ways of making idiots suffer.

[nathanbedford]

The "diatribe" might have been "recognized" but clearly it was not read (or even listened to) for it said,

"While one such failure of justice certainly does not excuse another in a legal sense, it most certainly sets the cultural context against which moralizing on this thread must be considered. Moreover, it sets a standard against which punishment should be consistently administered.

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You then repeat your assertion as if repetition alone enhances:

That others have disgraced the uniform, failed as leaders, and dishonored the principle that they swore to uphold; does not excuse this.

Does not excuse what?

[Polyxene]

The real loser in this whole mess is the baby. I feel so sorry for the poor little thing. I wonder if she has family that will look after him or if the father's family will take him.

[Night Hides Not]

I wonder if she has family that will look after him or if the father's family will take him.

Considering how these two turned out, maybe the child will be better off by being adopted?

[jw777]

Humiliating terrorists or suspected terrorists. That's what.

[PsyOp]

"Pvts don't run the military and she wasn't killing, or even torturing prisoners. She was not trained and led, she was put in a Lord of the Flies type situation and abandoned. Her superiors used that Lord of the Flies situation to their advantage and left this private out to hang."

Part of every soldier's training at boot camp includes basic instruction on the Laws of Land Warfare and the Geneva Convention. They are also taught the difference between a lawfull and unlawfull order and who to report to outside of the chain of command if asked to perform an illegal order.

She and those who acted with her knew that what they were doing was wrong, (MP's receive additional training on the treatment of POW's). They all lied when they said they had not received training on the Geneva Convention. There lawyers deliberately had the photos published to taint the military and deflect blame.

What they did placed other soldiers in danger. One of the few protections a U.S. Soldier has is the Geneva Convention and our strict adherence to it. That enemies know we will prosecute them for war crimes for harming captured US soldiers is a deterent to many. That we are known for good treatment of captured POPW's saves the lives of our guys by convincing enemy soldiers to lay down their arms sooner than they would otherwise. Those involved in Abu Ghraib undermined all of that. They put soldiers, including my daughter, in greater danger if captured or confronted by the enemy.

My daughter was part of the MI unit that took over operations of Abu Ghraib after the "incident". In addition to putting US soldiers in danger, they poisened the intelligence well, and made it much harder in the aftermath to gain intelligence from the prisoners being processed there. The damage they did is enormous and still being felt.

I hope she gets the max.

A former Army Maverick.

[spunkets]

"There lawyers deliberately had the photos published to taint the military and deflect blame."

BS. They were released by the DOD. Also, the photos covered goings on in general, from all over, and from any time. The release of all photos from everywhere, is simply consistent with the DOD's policy to release all items documenting events. Your attempt to smear the defendants and their council is ridiculous and indicates your concern for the truth.

"They all lied when they said they had not received training on the Geneva Convention."

Oh did they, or does this statement simply mean the officers and NCOs that housed the prisoners naked in the first place gave them their trianing? The officers and NCOs under BG Karpinski. That's the Gen, who when asked why she didn't know what was going on, responded it was, because some "CIA" folks told her to stay away.

Tell us how many hours of training she had. How many hours were spent attempting to instill in her the ability and understanding to be able to realize that the whole friggin' op she was a part of was bad? Where was her Sgt? Where was the Friggin' Lt? was it that they didn't give a shoe, or was it because they were happy that what was going on fit in with the general plan?

"What they did placed other soldiers in danger. One of the few protections a U.S. Soldier has is the Geneva Convention and our strict adherence to it."

Who the hell is they? This hand full of privates? It appears so doesn't it. They must have been running the place. I'll bet it was pvt England that came up with this whole plan and had the CIA and Army intel officers convinced she'd have every prisoner talking in no time. I'll even bet she sent those guys up to Karpinski's office to tell her to stay the hell out of the hallways, or they'd pants her too.

"My daughter"

Families all over the US have sons and daughters that join the Mil. They don't all have the benefit of having your level of guidance and your daughter's capacity. The Army knows that and maintains an officer corps to handle ops. These pvts weren't operating outside the supervision of their superiors. They were operating under their superiors' lead. They were let down. Their parents and country were let down by the officers in charge not this handful of pvts.

"...they poisened the intelligence well, and made it much harder in the aftermath to gain intelligence from the prisoners being processed there."

Seems you misssed who was responsible Maverick. It was the guys running the intel show in the first place, not these ignorant guard pvts just out of HS with weeks of guard training under their belt!

[jess35]

This is not a civil issue. When you put on a uniform and serve in the United States Military, you're held to a higher standard than a civilian...and for good reason. You can't compare military to civilian justice.

[jess35]

not these ignorant guard pvts just out of HS with weeks of guard training under their belt!

Oh Please. This is not the case at all. Why on earth are you trying to absove them of any personal Responsibility for their misconduct? I feel like I've wandered over to that other forum.

[spunkets]

"This is not the case at all."

It sure is.

"personal Responsibility for their misconduct?"

There in the gd Army and it's an Army op. What part of "UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THEIR COMMAND" don't you understand? I don't buy this personal responsibility whitewash BS to cover up for both the personal and professional reponsibility failures in this case. The meatheads running the show walk and the meathead grunts that performed as expected for the officers get stiffed.

Personal responsibility my ass. Not a single officer, stepped forward and said, you know what, this is our fault. We came up with this plan to keep our prisoners naked all the time, blah, blah, blah and these pvts really weren't capable of walking the fine line we were and WE FAILED IN OUR DUTY TO BOTH GUIDE AND LEAD THEM. We failed to even bother to know what the hell was going on.

[jess35]

I really wonder about some of you who think the average enlisted man/woman is so incredibly stupid they can't tie their own bootlaces let alone taunt/torture prisoners for fun. I guess we can see what you really think about our military.

[spunkets]

"I really wonder about some of you who think the average enlisted man/woman is so incredibly stupid they can't tie their own bootlaces let alone taunt/torture prisoners for fun."

That's nothing more than flak... pure exaggeration.

" I guess we can see what you really think about our military.

You don't know what I think and you failed to grasp what I wrote completely.

[Oztrich Boy]

What for?

Violating the UCMJ.

[Oztrich Boy]

This pvt. did no more than to follow the lead of her superiors at that place

Her superiors were not present. She was a clerk. Her jail visits were for Friday Night Funtime.

[Oztrich Boy]

Considering how these two turned out, maybe the child will be better off by being adopted by a pack of wolves.

[Valin]

I'm not sure if this will get me flamed, but here goes:

Abu Ghraib is a metaphor for a pi$$-poor chain of command! Where in the heck were the staff duty officers/NCOs? Were they sleeping on their watch?

Flamed? Not by me. Good questions.

[spunkets]

"Her superiors were not present."

34 y/o Cpl Graner was her superior and he had superiors. There were sgts involved in stacking naked prisoners. SUppose those sgts didn't know what Cpl Graner was about? The prisoners were kept naked and there was a general pattern of this kind of treatment found in other places. That wasn't Graner's decision and this wasn't just a Fri night thing.

"She was a clerk. Her jail visits were for Friday Night."

I assumed she was an MP and had a few hours training. She was 19/20 y/o. If she's a clerk, there's even less reason to think she'd know what was going on. There was a MP sgt letting dogs bite naked prisoners. Was she in on that? Prisoners were stacked and toppled naked. Was that Sat night fun, or was that scheduled for a different day?

[Tejas Punto]

A three-year sentence for posing terrorists in a cheerleader pyramid? Oh my total gosh!

[pawdoggie]

No, England deserves time. Being ignorant didn't excuse a NAZI from hanging, it shouldn't excuse her either.

I think you need to get a grip, and a sense of proportion, Red. Nazis were hung because they systematically executed millions of people, torture (sadly) was among the least of crimes for which Nazis were punished, and unless the torture led to death, it was not (and is not) a capital crime. England, for all her deficiencies, neither tortured or killed anyone (so far as alleged). She certainly did some things that in ordinary circumstances were outside of the Geneva Convention, but even that is open to interpretation because of the probable terrorist status of the Iraqi "insurgents" shown in the photos. England clearly has become the "equal opportunity" scapegoat for higher ups in the MP and MI contingent at Abu Ghraib who have not yet been identified, tried or punished.

[Valin]

Don't relly get it do you?