Have you ever been in a Turkish prison, Bobby?
L
Posted on 05/14/2006 10:17:59 AM PDT by wagglebee
I'd much rather have them fighting each other.
You said -- "Lawrence was pro-Muslim and anti-West after the war. I used to think he was a good man...not so sure anymore."
Not sure..., yes. But, he played his part in history -- and Israel is here...
Regards,
Star Traveler
Hear hear. Turkey may be no paradise, but the Turks do seem a bit more proficient at civil society than the Arabs.
Maybe the "A" was the beginning of "AAAAAAAH!!", because someone was trying to rape him.
I have carefully perused the extensive information which you have posted. Overall, the possible judgement of Britain in the Middle East, could be summed up as: Damned if they do and damned if they don't.
I thought I might add some information about Lawrence and his relationship with Lord Allenby. The British-Indian Army suffered one of it's most terrible defeats by the Turks in 1915. It was at Kut-el Amara. 8000 men surrendered. Over 4000 men died as the Turks marched them to captivity. Two generals were dismissed.
Perhaps Lawrence and his Arabs gave a great lift to sagging British morale. Allenby needed all the boosts he could get. The Turks met their own defeat at his hands after this. Lord Allenby walked into a freed Jerusalem. An eye for humility in Victory.
The Balfour Declaration, of which you will be aware, might be mentioned for others. Lord Balfour, in Nov 1917, wrote the World Zionist organization, that "His Majesties Government desired the establishment of a Jewish State" in Palestine.
It proved almost fatal for British-Arab relations.
Hahah, nah, I was just backing you up.
Anyway, its hardly relevant who took it up the poopenschaft a hundred years ago.
So the Ottomans didnt rape him.
The Ottoman empire didnt break up simply because of Lawrence of arabia. The arabs didnt like Turkish rule. They were going to have a bustup anyway.
POSTSCRIPT TO THE STORY:
The Ottoman empire broke up (as it was going to anyway), the Greeks invaded newly created Turkey, and Kemal Ataturk (Formerly Maj. Gen. Mustapha Kemal Pasha of Gallipoli) kicked their asses so bad that 90,000 Greek soldiers including their king got taken prisoners.
This was all the British's fault anyway. They egged the Greeks on, saying theyd help out.
Well, when push came to shove, Ataturk dared the British and the French to intervene, and sick of war, they both just packed up their bags and left Turkey for good.
Thats also why greece doesnt have a king anymore. The greeks were so mad at him over the disaster that they kicked him out.
Oh, and Enver Pasha (of young turk fame), was exiled from turkey, couldnt deal with a life without war, and died fighting the soviets during their takeover of what is probably now turkmenistan.
End of story.
Have you ever been in a Turkish prison, Bobby?
L
Six of one and a half dozen of the other. The Turkish government was more or less fascist.
I once read an account by an arab christian living in Palestine of the arrival of General Allenby.
According to him, the arabs were sick of Ottoman rule, and being drafted into the Ottoman army.
As soon as the Ottoman Kiladar (garrison commander) of palestine was otherwise occupied, they all deserted.
According to him, there was general peace and amicable relations between the muslims, christians, and jews of palestine under the Ottoman empire.
Allenby segregated all these communities under the British policy of divide and rule.
The author also made the observation that the Mohammedan troops of the British Indian army were far more fanatical in the practice of their religion than were the local arab muslims.
Interesting. Only on FR am I ever comparatively ignorant on a historical subject.
By 1914, most of the Christian nations of southeastern Europe had managed to free themselves from Ottoman rule (Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, Rumanians) and also the majority-Muslim Albanians. Why should the non-Turkish peoples elsewhere been forced to remain inside the empire?
Mozart
The fellow paid by Lawrence to beat him with birches later testified to that effect.
"The Secret History of Lawrence of Arabia"
You are right. the Ottoman Empire would have collapsed with or without Lawrence. Once the Greeks left the Empire was doomed.
Lawrence wrote the story in his book "Seven Pillars of Wisdom".
That is why it was in the film. Fair is fair. If it is a lie, it is Lawrence's lie.
Lawrence had an odd morality: His father had left his wife, and shacked up with his mother. After the war, Sir John Chapman acknowledged Lawrence as his illegitimate son. Lawrence changed his name to T.E. Chapman, and joined the Tank Corps as a private. After being recalled from India at the strong request of the government of Afghanistan, (who resented his presence on their border in an "obvious cover") he left the Tank Corps and joined the Royal Air Force. He changed his name again to T.E. Shaw, after his close friend, George Bernard Shaw, and as such, he is mentioned in the Forward to Robert Graves' book "I Claudius". In the Royal Air Force, he was critical in the development of the special boat service to recover downed pilots.
Wow, that's an interesting guy.
Yes, the Empire was already in decline by the time the Greeks gained their independence. The power of the Sultans had been reduced to a joke... the old conquerors had been replaced by flabby and half insane rulers, and the empire was in truth run by the Janissary corps, until they were decimated under the orders of Sultan Mehmet II.
By then, it was too late to resucitate the empire. It was a long downward spiral.
There are some very very interesting archives of Enver Pashas diary as a military commnader in Bulgaria, and his despair at putting down Bulgarian uprisings.
Indeed, he notes a feeling og disgust at the policies of his own empire, suppressing the freedom of the Bulgarians, and expresses his displeasure at being the instrument of the destruction of their legitimate aspirations.
This apparently had some role in his later revolutionary ideas as a member of the 'young turks'.
Now that's a team player.
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