Posted on 12/29/2006 4:21:21 PM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks
Absolutely not. That's libertarian idealism, and like any idealism it doesn't always apply.
In particular, the "user fee" battle will be heating up this summer as congress contemplates changing the funding base for Air Traffic Control from aviation gas taxes to user fees.
The argument is best examined by looking at who is for user fees, and who is against them. The airlines are pushing for a system that they will control, a private company operating ATC under airline direction, which will obviously favor airlines.
Against the idea are the 400,000 members of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association, who fly the majority of aircraft in the country, into 15,000 small airports. In other words "we the people" don't like it. Current fuel taxes we pay easily pay for ATC. The system is *not* broken, and there is no reason to change it. In places such as Europe, where user fees are paid for every touch and go, every call to flight service, every flight plan filed, General Aviation is virtually dead.
I could go on about this, about the coming technology that could make ATC unneeded *if* is not cemented into it's current technology via government contracts, and more. But suffice it to say that user fees will destroy a multi billion dollar industry at the urging of an even larger multi-multi-billion dollar industry. That's just wrong.
Finally let me say, you continue to base part of your argument on something you dreamed up. That toll roads impede progress. Nobody believes that.
If toll roads are so good, then why did they remove the toll booths between Dallas and Ft. Worth? You would be correct if the question was toll road vs. no road. But that isn't the question, and I've presented my numerous first hand observations of how toll roads have stifled development in Oklahoma. That you choose to ignore what I've observed is your problem.
The only good part about this is that as an Okie, I can celebrate Texas shooting themselves in the foot. LOL
You just encapsulated the elitist, imperial, above-the-law, hyper-entitled, to-hell-with-Texans, attitide of Ric Williamson's TXDOT very well.
TXDOT: bureaucracy totally out of control -- and encouraged by the worst RINO governor Texas has had for many decades.
What about "we the other people"
As for DFW Turnpike, in retrospect, that was a major error.
Compare it to NDT where tolls were used to maintain it and expand it.
What other people? The pilots I'm talking about are the people paying the taxes to support ATC, and we like it just fine as is WITHOUT user fees. As for airline passengers, I think the numbers will show that aviation fuel taxes per passenger are far less than per passenger on GA aircraft (which don't use many ATC services anyway).
As for DFW Turnpike, in retrospect, that was a major error.
It was if your goal was to restrict development between Dallas and Ft. Worth. Once someone gets on a turnpike, they tend not to leave it until the end, or until they're completely tired, and that turnpike wasn't that long. What is it about roadside businesses that you don't comprehend?
The goal of the NDT was to *stop* roadside development, because that turnpike went through existing residential areas. It worked.
Capitalism works because it contains a feedback loop. The feedback works when customers can choose between competitors. The problem with roads is that competition is never possible.
Lets say the road to your house is a turnpike. It would be impractical from a land use perspective to build two roads to your house, so competition is not possible. The owner of the turnpike can charge as much as he wants, provide the least passable road, and you're stuck. This would never work.
But you say that between city A and city B there is plenty of space, so two private toll road companies could each build a road. With two toll roads, the people would drive on the one that was cheapest, forcing a price war that would eventually drive one company out of business, and end the competition feedback. Perhaps they could collude on a fixed price, but then they would be cheating citizens by forcing them to pay for both toll roads when the business would only require one. Again the citizens *will* be cheated.
But you say that the feedback for Texas toll roads will be the contract the state has with them. Ok. So the toll road company allows its road to deteriorate, then what? You go to your representative and tell them you want the state to sue the private company and make them give you a decent road. That *is* feedback, but it's an inferior feedback, because instead of the politician being directly accountable for the road, you must make the politician be accountable for making the toll road company be accountable. That is an inferior system, and again the citizens will be cheated.
You've already admitted that free local streets are necessary, paid from gas taxes. So you're in favor of both taxes AND toll roads. Double whammy. Question: why can't the toll road company merely claim a percentage of the states gas taxes in relation to its traffic, and no direct tolls collected. The private toll company could borrow the money to build the road so the state does not have to, and pay it back with their share of the gas tax. Answer: Because the true goal of this scheme isn't to build roads. It's to allow politicians to squander the tax money in places that aren't nearly as obvious as neglected roads. They want the money, but don't want to provide the goods to the people.
The economic feedback for roads provided via politicians isn't as good as normal capitalistic feedback loops. But it's the best option there is.
By definition, the people of Texas are going to pay for their roads, one way or another. Siphoning off money as profit to a private toll road operator is an unnecessary cost. Giving up control of major roads to a private company degrades the feedback loop over operation of the toll road, and because of non-compete clauses damages citizen feedback on non toll roads. Toll roads are inferior by any reasonable measure, unless you personally stand to profit by their existence. And if you do, then your entire discussion of this issue has been dishonest, because you have not revealed a conflict of interest, and you've been trying to persuade people under a false pretense.
I've had enough of this discussion.
There has been no DFW turnpike for many years. The fact that there has been very little developement contradicts you. The only developement that is significant is associated with the entertainment district, not the road. If the road had remained tolled, you can be sure that the needed improvements to access the entertainment would have been made.
Beyond the original NTD, developement along the toll road is intense.
Do I communicate that badly? Or is your capacity for understanding that low? "We the users" already pay ATC expenses via fuel taxes. In fact the feds used to raid the aviation trust fund to pay for non-aviation purposes. I thought I had made that clear, but perhaps it takes more effort with you.
The fact that there has been very little developement contradicts you.
I lived in some of the new development along the turnpike, not long after the toll gates closed. I just pulled up the google earth image from where I lived in east Ft. Worth, and trust me, there's been lots and lots of development along the free road since I lived there.
Beyond the original NTD, developement along the toll road is intense.
Development already was intense when I worked about 1 mile north of the end of the north Dallas toll road in the 80's. I've heard they extended the turnpike to take more money from the people. The suckers.
But amazingly, a few years ago when I flew my plane over the house I owned in Allen Tx, there had been virtually no additional building. Why was that? Perhaps because the traffic was already bad when I owned that house around 83, and the extension on the turnpike that I understand was built has not relieved it. After all, if there is no traffic congestion on free roads, what blithering idiot would drive on a toll road? They have to keep traffic snarled so the government can collect taxes from the toll road owners as they also collect fuel taxes that won't be used for paying for the toll road. Wow. That's quite a haul for government, if you can fool the people into it.
This is something you dreamed up.
Where in the world is this happening?
Yes. I dreamed up all the development between Ft. Worth and Dallas since the toll booths closed.
Just curious, what is it you believe I dreamed up?
Perhaps you think that there was no traffic congestion in Dallas north of the toll road in the 80's?
Perhaps you think I'm making up the fact that if people are given a choice between a road where they pay to drive vs. one where they don't, they'll choose the free road. That is unless the free road is jammed up.
Perhaps you believe that I'm making up the fact that the state will ensure the free roads will be inferior to the toll roads so as to entice people to pay money to drive.
Perhaps you think I'm making up the fact that people who drive on toll roads will be paying twice. Once via fuel taxes, then again for the toll. Perhaps you think I'm making it up that the state will collect taxes on the toll companies while they collect gas taxes they won't be spending on roads.
Perhaps you think I'm making it up that the government can sell the people on such a backwards idea.
First, you think that having lived Texas in the 80s make you authority. The reality is that I know more about AZ roads than you do about Texas roads. I know more about Phoenix roads than you do about DFW roads. I strongly suspect that you are originally from "up north", moved to Texas but couldn't assimilate, and moved on to AZ.
Second, given that AZ is a high tax state, with a large debt, and not much money in the bank, how can you say that is preferable to Texas with low taxes, low debt, and money in the bank.
You are in the position of having to defend a dinosaur of road funding. The world and the nation are not headed in your direction. Public opinion favors tolling over taxes.
One thing for sure. AZ and Texas, based on population projections, have very favorable spread sheets for financing infrastructure. This makes private money available at a very reasonable price. The difference is that Texas will take advantage of this and AZ won't. Or maybe they will. Maybe AZ will sell some of those new roads to Cintra?
You see, its not just how the road is paid for, but also how soon the road can be built. It not just that a private investor will pay for a direct toll road, but they will also go into a partnership with a local govt to build a pass through toll road.
Another thing for sure, Texas has always had better road than AZ and will always have better roads.
One thing yo
You just blew away your credibility with that statement. The excuse for Texas turning to toll roads is that the existing roads are in bad condition and the State of Texas has proven itself incompetent to build and maintain their roads.
Public opinion favors tolling over taxes.
Really? What sane person refuses to take a road because it's free? On the other hand, people do refuse to take toll roads because they charge. Me for example, and my observation of traffic on the turnpike where old Memorial Rd. was in north Oklahoma City, where more cars drive on the free access road than the turnpike, is proof that I'm not alone. This is one of several reasons why toll roads depress development.
In any event, your statement is dishonest, because the choice isn't between paying gas taxes and paying tolls. The choice is between paying slightly more gas taxes, or paying the existing gas taxes AND tolls.
There is *no* free lunch. Texans *will* pay for their roads someplace, and my only point is that the existing system has demonstrated itself to be superior because this country has become very wealthy over the last century on good free roads.
Go ahead Texas. Build those toll roads. I'll stay here in Arizona and laugh.
Where is your link? Where is your source?
Same place as your link for your statement several posts back of "This is something you dreamed up". You failed to tell me what it was you thought I was dreaming up. You failed to tell me what it was about it that was dreamed up. In other words, you dreamed up the reply "This is something you dreamed up" with not a link, not even a clarification when I inquired.
If you had comprehended my original point, it's not whether a particular opinion poll shows the public "prefers toll vs. taxes" (such polls are very dubious anyway, because the general public hasn't been engaged on the issue, and because they were likely not told that the end result would be that it would cost at least as much to drive one way or another). My point was that no one would refuse to drive on a road because it was free. But some people *will* refuse to drive on a road where people demand money up front. Logically, that demonstrates that fewer people will drive on the toll road than an identical free road. Even if it's 5%, it is still fewer people.
Fewer people, fewer dollars spent, less gas purchased, less development.
Do you get it yet?
Higher taxes cause less driving than tolls.
That is why the enviros favor higher gas taxes over tolls.
Many years ago,NY built the NYS Thruway toll road on the promise that after twenty years,when the costs were recouped,the tolls would stop.What a joke on New Yorkers!It has been way over twenty years ago,and the tolls are still there.Once the politicians saw what a cash cow it was,all bets were off.They keep going up to the point where truckers have taken different routes to avoid them.That in turn causes the counties that truckers use to circumvent the tolls,to have to raise their taxes to maintain their own roads.Someone is making some good cash on this deal,and it ain;t the taxpayers.
You haven't refuted narby's point: are free roads near toll roads in TX allowed to languish, or do they get improved over time?
If all limited-access highways and expressways are considered candidates for tolls, the existing gas tax should be dedicated to improvement and building of surface roads and whatever highways are designated as free, and if there's more than enough money, the tax should be lowered.
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