Posted on 07/20/2007 12:30:45 PM PDT by my_pointy_head_is_sharp
It's getting off subject (of the first age) but in this chapter God is warning His children to straighten up and follow Him, "put away thine abominations". If they don't He warns, "My fury come forth like fire...".
In vs. 7 He warns "the lion is come up from his thicket. That was the king of Babylon when he took them captive but he was only a type for the the anti-christ, the destroyer who comes at the 6th trump. He warns us that he will come but He has given many examples of protecting His children. The big "If" attached to that protection is that we know who the fake is and that he comes first.
In vs.13 and 14 He tells us that anti-christ will come and he shows up in Jerusalem. God tells us what He did in the first age, how He shook the earth and split continents apart so by vs.18 we know to be aware of what He did to end the first age and be prepared for the end of the second.
That probably didn't make a great deal of sense to you in such a condensed version but it is much more than telling us about Jerusalem falling to the Babylonians. It is also our warning for end times which He compares to what He did to the first age (23-28).
I find the idea of an age before this one very plausible and it answers some difficult questions. We know we will have an age after this one - why couldn't there have been one before this one?
The hebrew word used for earth in the 23rd verse of Jeremiah 4, is the same word used for earth in 2nd verse of Genesis 1:
776 'erets eh'-rets
from an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land):--X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X natins, way, + wilderness, world.
Remember though, that words with multiple meanings are contingent upon context, so in this case, earth simply means land, and not the earth as as a whole. Even in our language we often refer to such vast open areas of land as earth, without signifying the planet as a whole.
Additionally, such descriptive language as is seen in verse 23, in my mind, corresponds quite well with a catastrophic war zone. You may disagree however.
I'm not saying that you're definitely wrong....all I'm saying is that I just don't see your interpretation when taken in context.
Well, then you have a motive for infusing your own ideas into the text...ideas which may or may not be correct. To be perfectly honest, I just don't know. By no means am I an expert on the Bible, but I just don't see what you see.
Right now, I'm reading the Acts of the Apostles, and when I finish the New Testament, I'll start reading the Old Testament. I don't really like to pick and choose chapters, since they in a lot of cases, there are cross references to understanding the text...although, from debating Biblical issues over the years, I'm quite familiar with the first few chapters of Genesis, and I've researched much of it in it's original language, and I envy those who are fluent in it.
My point is, I want to read the Bible diligently, and as a whole, and when I happen to come to Jeremiah, only then will I have a better understanding of things. If God so chooses to enlighten me before that comes to pass, then even better, but sometimes I tend to think that it is a sign of disrespect on my part to comment on those things I really no nothing about, and although google can be a good asset to research and analysis, it can never replace sitting down with the good book and giving it a good honest read, no matter how long it takes.
Additionally, such descriptive language as is seen in verse 23, in my mind, corresponds quite well with a catastrophic war zone. You may disagree however.
I would agree except that the "heavens had no light" and "there was no man and all the birds of the heavens were fled.".
Too...in vs.28 it tells us that God will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.. If comparing the end times with the first destruction, as I believe the verses tell us, then it is much deeper than just the city of Jerusalem being taken.
1Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (12) Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
I believe the sacking of Jerusalem was an example for us of end times. That is where the anti-christ will stand pretending to be Christ and that is where Christ will return. The difference will be that the return of Christ will be felt the world over, as the ending of the first age was.
You could be right but so many things fell into place for me when I learned some of these things. Questions I have had all of my life, some of which kept me from believing completely, are now answered.
So, am I putting preconceived ideas into this or have I had questions answered? I don't see how it could be preconceived as I don't believe I ever considered an age before this one. It never crossed my mind. I read Genesis as most do - surface only and always left with so many questions that I just gave up.
My point is, I want to read the Bible diligently, and as a whole,
As do I, isn't it a fascinating journey?
You're welcome, and may I say the same of you. Look (and this isn't just directed at you) I agree that interpreting the Bible in certain ways would make things a whole lot easier between what we observe (in the scientific sense) and what we (or at least most of us) know to be true in our hearts and the privacy of our thoughts, but I can't deny that these conflicts exist. I'm not against metaphorical and allegorical interpretations, especially in the case of Genesis, but I haven't yet found that any of these arguments have merit.
I was going to continue with more, but something just came up and I have to go for now.....
Yeah.....I never had a problem knowing that the Lord had no beginning (existed for all eternity) because time is a relative thing based on a physical reality. Whereas God exists in a spiritual realm where there is nothing to measure time....thus no beginning or end.
But, when told that this physical thing we call the universe is only 6000 years old......it makes me wonder why it took God so long to get around to creating it. Just what has He been doing in the ageless past?
I was out for a while with my buddy John. Good friend of mine, and I love him dearly. We discuss God and the Bible often, and have some very pleasant conversations. Every now and then though, when we're talking about Genesis, he stops me for a moment and says, "God only created three things...1) the heaven and the earth, 2 ) the spirit in man, 3) and the great whales"...although upon further discussion, and prompting by me, he acknowledges that God did indeed "make" everything. I then proceed to try to get him to understand that he's making a semantic argument here, and that it's really not important since it means the same thing....hoping of course, to move back to our pleasant conversation.
To make a long story short (since this has been a reoccurring theme for a long time now) some biblical group that he was involved in years ago, caused him to believe that this distinction between those words is somehow significant, and I'll tell ya, it's really rooted in there deep, and at times, it affects his interpretation of things...sometimes very oddly, at least from my perspective.
He's a good man, but, damn if it doesn't make for a very frustrating conversation.......
The real question, as far as I'm concerned, is why he created at all...
Yeah....you would think He had enough problems already with rebellious angels and Lucifer falling from heaven, weakening the nations etc.,etc., Oh....wait a minute....He created them too!
I guess the last thing He would need is me trying to explain things....huh?
In other words, people without advanced degrees are too ignorant to understand how anything works, so they should not even try. Instead, they should just believe some Ph.D. scientists on blind faith. That sounds religious!
Your comment reminds me of simple story... since I am just a simple man.
"The Emperor's New Clothes," where only the smartest citizens in the kingdom—or so the authorities said—could actually see the king's mysterious new clothes. Everyone else—poor, uneducated rabble that they were—just saw a naked king, but they, too, pretended to see the clothes, just as the elite did.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:20).
God is very clear that He did not put stumbling blocks in His creation.
Here is how I read the verse you posted.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes have been clearly seen being understood by the things that are made [as opposed to spontaneous generation], even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. . . . (Romans 1:20).
Even without the Spirit of God, without God having fully revealed Himself to a person, it is still possible for him to recognize that a creation demands the existence of a Creator. He can see that an intelligent Designer is necessary rather than the natural world coming into existence by sheer chance. Thus, God says that they are without excuse because they can understand the things that can be known about Him, if they choose to accept it.
Now if we look that the previous part of that chapter.. starting with Roman 18-19...
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (verses 18-19)
God reveals to mankind what can be known about Him: Himself and His creative power by displaying the marvels of the creation.
Now lets go to next parts..verses 21-23 of Romans..
. . . because, although they knew God [they experienced or were familiar with what He had done], they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Rather than following truth, man rejects the knowledge of God. He willingly turns a blind eye to His Creative powers, and instead, in his mind, replaces the faultless and perfect God with frail, perishable organisms: man, birds, reptiles, etc. He is willing to elevate almost anything above the true God.
And God allows this! In essence, He says, "If this is the way of life you choose, fine. Its consequences you bring upon yourselves!" Notice the results later on in verses 24-25
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshipped and served the creature [creation] rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (verses 24-25)
You see a stumbling block here from the world which God created ...First John 2..
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him....And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
BTW.. for the record.. where did I say the world was any age in my posts? Since I don't know how old the Earth is, and God hasn't told me... I don't see how I even could fathom an answer on that particular question. Perhaps you could link an post of mine that shows otherwise. I personally don't think the world is 15 billion years old as Evos believe, and I am hard pressed to believe any carbon dating using set standards of dates like they use. I don't see how birds could of evolved wings slowly (and not died of natural selection). But I never once said how long I thought the Earth was in reality..
Thanks...
You have a lot of nerve calling me a "hater of God". Nothing could be farther from the truth. I just have a problem with biblical "literalists" who pick and choose just what parts of the bible they want to take literally and what parts they want to interpret.
You have no right to call me a "hater of God". Judge not lest ye be judged - whatever measure you use to judge me will be used to judge you.
>>I just have a problem with biblical “literalists” who pick and choose just what parts of the bible they want to take literally and what parts they want to interpret.<<
You mean, just as you have done, trying to pull one over and get a “gotcha”?
I do not pick and choose. “All scripture is breathed out by God and is useful for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness.” 2 Tim 3:16. I believe in the totality and authority of Scripture, breathed out by God, every word the truth.
Either you believe Scripture is the word of God, or you don’t. There’s no middle ground. You can’t say you love God, but reject his holy and inerrant word.
John 14:15 - “If you love me, you’ll keep my commandments.”
Luke 6:46 - “Why do you call me Lord, Lord, but not do what I say?”
Mt 7:21 - “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven.”
Are you doing God’s will by disbelieving in the truth of his word? Are you doing God’s will by creating a god in your heart that suits your sin?
>>You have a lot of nerve calling me a “hater of God”.<<
Sorry, but the Bible is abundantly clear that there are only two distinct groups of people. Those in Christ, and those out of Christ. Sheeps and goats, wheat and tares, hot or cold. Lovers of God and his law, or haters of God and his law. Righteousness in Christ, or unrighteousness in unrepentant sin.
Romans 8:7 - “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.”
Romans 1:28-30 - “And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.”
Matthew 12:30 - “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.”
John 3:36 - “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God on him.”
I John 3:10 - “In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.”
Acts 17:30-31 - “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
Ezekiel 18:4 - “Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.”
Romans 2:5-8 = “But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.”
>>Judge not lest ye be judged - whatever measure you use to judge me will be used to judge you.<<
I’m not judging you. God’s word is. His word is truth, it cannot lie, and you stand guilty under it’s judgment if you do not have Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. And only a corrupt judge would let the guilty go free.
Either you’re with him, or you’re against him. There is no middle-ground.
The good news is, you don’t have to be against him. He loved the world so much that he sent his only Son (John 1 - “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us”) to take the punishment of sinners and die upon the cross. 2 Corinthians 5:21 - “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” Sinners cannot appear before God without a savior. Christ took the punishment so that we could be set free from the bondage and condemnation of our sin and appear before God cloaked in the righteousness of Christ.
If you believe in your heart that Christ died for your sin, you can turn to him in repentance and faith and he will be faithful and just to save you.
2 Corinthians 6:2 - “For he says, “In a favorable time I listened to you,and in a day of salvation I have helped you. “Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.”
Why oh why do people paraphrase that verse? Reread it and you will see Jesus is talking directly to HYPOCRITES... read futher and you will see that Jesus then shows the hypocrites how to judge correctly.
I have put up a little web answer for you in more detail here.
See post 314... if you are Christian, you should judge everything.
The liberals have almost destroyed the morality of this country with their perpetual falsehoods, one of which is the dishonest use of Matthew 7:1-5 without considering its context and application.
The liberal Bible hater's purpose of using that verse is to remove the cultural moral rejection that should go along with the practice of sin. Too bad so many people have bought into this fundamental liberal dishonesty.
For many, many years liberals have been lying about those verses and lying about their real intent for quoting those verses in the first place.
The liberal's intent is to deceive the public and handcuff Christians so that they may take away any cultural and moral discouragement for lives of sin.
I think the point is one of judging who will be saved. That is where we lack the authority.
I just came across this scripture this morning and it has a great deal to do with our discussion on the 3 ages of heaven and earth.
11 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
4.How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul, I suppose in some type of a vision, was taken to the 3rd. heaven age and shown what it will be like in that paradise. If there is that 3rd age it has to follow this 2nd age and that means there was an age before this one.
Just something else to consider........Ping
Thanks Png-Pong. That’s an interesting verse, and on the surface, seems compelling. I’ll check it out next time I sit down with the Bible....
AMEN!
Even the Bereans searched the scriptures to see if Paul’s words held any merit. They made a judgment. If we are to expose the works of darkness as Eph 5 admonishes us, we need to make judgments. Pauls letters to the Corinthians were judgments. Church discipline is making a judgment on other believers.
We are to judge everything through the lens of Scripture.
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