Posted on 08/05/2007 1:39:05 PM PDT by shrinkermd
Correct. But it is mid-eastern literature.
“What? Intelligent Design is biblical creationism.”
And dinosaurs were house cats.
You’re entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
“Oh, sure, they’ve changed all the words around making a pretense of removing God from ID.”
Okay, now I’m starting to be afraid. That’s not even rational.
There is no pretense of “removing God from ID.” ID is merely an accomodation of scientific fact with the fact that God exists.
“But the facts are that the textbooks for ID in the Kansas school board case used the words “creationism” in earlier manuscripts.”
There are a lot of problems with that statement. Firstly, how would you know? It’s hardly likely that you’re buddies with the writers, so that they would show you the MS. Secondly, the simple use of the word proves nothing. They could have been using it to draw a contrast between seven-day young-earth creationism and ID. Thirdly, even if there are 7DYEC types trying to abuse the concept of ID, that does not define ID itself.
“ID” is a fraud perpetrated by creationists”
Wow, you are really a fanatic. Your hatred for 7DYEC believers is extreme.
“that they think will allow them to bypass church-state restrictions”
The only “church-state restriction” is that the state cannot mess with Christianity or Judaism. There is no bar to Christianity or Judaism having an influence on government.
“and this fact was clearly demonstrated in court evidence.”
Oh, yes, our judicial system is *so* honest and unbiased that we can rely on it blindly. I don’t doubt that all kinds of things were asserted, but, again, those assertions don’t define ID.
“What? So the fact that I accept evolution means I can’t oppose those that oppose it?*
Your insistance that ID is merely 7DYEC in disguise is completely irrational. People who agree with ID do not oppose evolution.
“About my beliefs, I personally think that God is powerful enough to have created evolution.”
Congratulations, and welcome to the ranks of ID proponents.
“To those that get hung up on the idea that life could not have been created by “chance”, doesn’t God have control over “chance”? I see no conflict between God and evolution.”
Another central tenet of ID.
“Genesis is only a few hundred words long, several orders of magnitude too brief to have described “how” God did anything, merely saying “who” did it.”
Sure. We ID proponents (and that “we” includes you) find that to be completely reasonable.
“By the way, it’s not just the “fossil record” that demonstrates evolution.”
Okay, fine. I’m not disputing it.
“Correct. But it is mid-eastern literature.”
Actually, it is the Inspired Word of God.
The facts are that the books that were proposed to teach "ID" in Kansas were originally written to support biblical creationism. Many examples of almost exact find-and-replace between the words "creationism" and "intelligent design" were in early manuscripts found during discovery.
Whatever you believe ID is or is not, the movers and shakers in the movement are quite obviously frauds, attempting to implement something akin to the Discovery Institute "Wedge strategy". A quick summary of the strategy is to first insert ID into school science curricula, with the ultimate goal of bringing full boat religious teaching into public schools.
I don't like people who will deceive others about their agenda, even if they are Christians.
There's the facts.
Are you suggesting Christianity is intolerant, mono-culturalist, etc.?
I see your from Indiana. What do you know of actual CA school teachers?
Pretty funny from a bunch who go bonkers at the thought of Muzzie foot washing in schools. Idiots.
As an example, last year my class read a version of Flowers for Algernon. In this book a character makes a reference to 'original sin' and 'the apple of the tree' eaten by Eve and Adam. About 1/2 of my students did not understand the reference at all and so we spent a few minutes reading the account. I have also used the Bible when explaining how different cultures have different ideas of how the world was created. It is interesting to compare across many cultures and see the similarities.
Is there a place for the Koran and for the Torah? Absolutely - when they intersect and support literature and can be used to expand on a theme in a story. But since I primarily teach 8th graders, my focus is on seminal American and British Lit. World lit, where the Koran might be more useful, comes well after 8th grade in my county. It is my job for them to leave 8th grade with a solid underpinning of the stories, myths, legends, and poems that are common to our American culture, before they branch out.
One of the books I use more than any other is Bill Bennett's Big Book of Virtues. What an excellent compendium of great classic, American, and Brit lit! It also focuses on stories and lessons that contain great moral truths - not necessarily religious ones, but ones that are universal in nature.
I do not however believe that the Bible should be used to proselytize - but as an explanation of where classic literature ideas come from, no problem.
In case anyone is wondering, yes I've had to defend this use, but it was easy to do when taken holistically of how I treat other cultures and the purpose.
LOL, you are a card. The way 'multiculturalism' and 'tolerance' that are taught is to create an atmosphere where whitie and Christians are hated. Christianity teaches true tolerance and forgiveness, and not the hatred of the leftist elitists such as you seem to wish to defend.
Well I have lived in California, but my comment applies to all the NEA-indoctrinated teachers in every state.
“Many examples of almost exact find-and-replace between the words “creationism” and “intelligent design” were in early manuscripts found during discovery.”
So there’s overlap. Big deal.
“the movers and shakers in the movement are quite obviously frauds”
Come on, now. You really need to ease up.
“with the ultimate goal of bringing full boat religious teaching into public schools.”
I’m not sure what you mean by that, but I don’t see a downside to treating Christianity as respectable.
Apparently you are more informed about what public schools are teaching. Then again, generalizing as to what every public school in the country is teaching may very well be a false leap.
The purpose of public schools is to educate students in math, English, grammar, history, geography and maybe some initial introduction to science.
When and where they got the idea that they have the right or "duty" to delve in sex education (which some if not all schools have been given the go-ahead to indoctrinate even young students to view a family headed by "two moms" or "two dads" as equally normal to a "mother and father household".
That kind of perservive mind-training, and any other unacceptable or useless curricula, it seems to me, should be bringing many parents to the doors of the schools. They have the power, as a group, to put a stop to this propaganda. Do they even know what's going on? Do they care? As I see it, they have a serious responsiblity to control what goes on in these schools, including the universities.
If they don't like the liberal bias of many (most?) college professors, they can refuse to pay the tuition for their children to attend.
See how fast these liberal institions would suffer financially! They'd be forced to change...to employ an equal number of conservative-minded teachers. They might very well stick to what they are being paid to do. Their personal religious and political persuasions, for two, would have no place in the classroom.
When we allow the government and the educational system, for instance, to make decisions that are not supportive of the best interests of Unitied States citizens, we also are guilty of apathy, for one.
Here, let's do a little find-and-replace.
So there's fraud. Big deal.
Taking the manuscript of a book and replacing the word "creationism" with "Intelligent Design" and then claiming that ID has nothing to do with religion is one of the biggest frauds the creationist community ever attempted.
“Taking the manuscript of a book and replacing the word “creationism” with “Intelligent Design” and then claiming that ID has nothing to do with religion”
There’s no way to say this gently...
It is irrational to think that anyone has ever claimed that ID has “nothing to do with” religion. Absent belief in the existence of God, ID is meaningless.
I think you should worry. You don’t seem to be able to discuss this question and remain rational.
ID is an invention specifically designed to avoid acknowledging a belief in God, so that it could be taught in Public Schools.
You don’t seem to be able to discuss this question and remain rational.
Maybe it's your ability to comprehend that is in disorder.
“ID is an invention specifically designed to avoid acknowledging a belief in God”
If there is no God, who is the Intelligent Designer?
“Maybe it’s your ability to comprehend that is in disorder.”
Given your statement that the theory of Intelligent Design was invented specifically to avoid acknowledging belief in an Intelligent Designer, I think it’s yours.
That's my point exactly. "Intelligent Design" is a fraud invented to conceal the fact that they're really talking about God. Which is why using find-and-replace on the word "creationism" to "intelligent design" in the Kansas textbook was done.
It obviously violates church-state separation to teach biblical creationism in public schools, which is why the fraud of ID was necessary. You should read that link I posted on the "Wedge strategy", where the creationists laid it all out on paper, and now they deny their own published strategy when caught trying to implement it.
Are all Christians liars, or just the creationists at the Discovery Institute?
Me: If there is no God, who is the Intelligent Designer?
You: That’s my point exactly. “Intelligent Design” is a fraud invented to conceal the fact that they’re really talking about God.
That’s a jaw-dropper. Really. I was so stunned when I read that, that I took a few minutes to figure out where to start.
ID proponents never try to hide the fact that they’re talking about God. The very name, “Intelligent Design” is a proclamation that we’re talking about God.
How in the world could anyone possibly get the idea that ID proponents are trying to hide the fact that they’re talking about God?
“It obviously violates church-state separation to teach biblical creationism in public schools”
No, it doesn’t. Of course, I would only want that taught as one of the things that some Christians believe, while others believe in ID. Both points of view should be respected. Atheism should not.
“You should read that link I posted on the “Wedge strategy”
I read it, and it strikes me as a wild flight into the outer reaches of paranoia.
“where the creationists laid it all out on paper, and now they deny their own published strategy when caught trying to implement it.”
Even if you are correct that **some** creationists in **one** location thought that getting ID taught would make it easier to get creationism in later (and read carefully, because this is where you break with reality), that does not mean that ID itself is a fraud, nor does it mean that ID proponents are not sincere, neither net does it mean that ID is not true.
“Are all Christians liars, or just the creationists at the Discovery Institute?”
Don’t you even know any Christians?
That’s already being done - story was posted on FR yesterday about a school spending two weeks teaching Islam.
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