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Police Turn to Secret Weapon: GPS Device
Washington Post ^ | August 13, 2008 | Ben Hubbard

Posted on 08/17/2008 8:54:24 AM PDT by Eric Blair 2084

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To: Issaquahking
and continue... against unreasonable searches and seizures

The question is one about the unreasonableness of using electronic tracking of someone moving in public - on public roads and publicly visible areas.

This is really no more intrusive than having a 24 hour surveillance team watching him. If the GPS attached to the outside of the car is illegal because of the 4th Amendment, then you could make a reasonable argument that visual tracking is also illegal.

21 posted on 08/17/2008 9:52:29 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the sting of truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: Issaquahking
If the POS outright owns the car, I have a problem under the fourth amendment. That said though, if a financial house has ownership in the car (they financed), and authorizes the GPS, no problem!

So if a family has a mortgage on their house, they have no right to privacy? Their bank can authorize a wiretap without a warrant?

22 posted on 08/17/2008 9:55:03 AM PDT by Alter Kaker (Gravitation is a theory, not a fact. It should be approached with an open mind...)
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To: Squantos

At some point, past behavior in and of itself becomes probable cause.

As you say, bad people have bad habits.


23 posted on 08/17/2008 9:56:19 AM PDT by null and void (Barack zerObama - International Man of Mystery...)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

Never saw that system abused as all the LEO’s dis was tail or surveil the suspect. The gps sat tag is more than what we had when I was doing it yet no less that following the vehicle and using multiple deputies to tail the suspect. Consider it a manpower multiplier per se ....... Now one LEO can follow one high profile suspect.


24 posted on 08/17/2008 9:57:02 AM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

I don’t really see a fourth amendment issue. Law enforcement could accomplish the same thing by simply following you everywhere. If the device had sound or picture, then you’d have a search and seizure case. There’s a ‘trespass to chattels’ issue in placing something on your property without your permission, though. But somehow I don’t see the average street thug bringing a civil case on that ground.


25 posted on 08/17/2008 9:59:55 AM PDT by ArmstedFragg
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To: Issaquahking
Again, if the POS outright owns the vehicle, they have no case. If a loan is made to buy the car, then, with permission from the financing house, you can place the GPS.

I am sure you will extend this vacuous logic to those who rent an apartment or house, and anyone who does not own their house outright.

Sleep tight, your dream world is others nightmare.

26 posted on 08/17/2008 10:01:37 AM PDT by onceone
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To: Issaquahking

Looks to me like the key word is “unreasonable” rather than “effects”. It’s not unreasonable to track a convicted rapist’s van.


27 posted on 08/17/2008 10:02:01 AM PDT by Partisan Gunslinger
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To: Eric Blair 2084

In this case, I have a bit of a problem. But I can see making it a condition of parole from a sentence involving a violent crime to allow the police to surreptitiously tag cars, or anything else. Then, you’re not involving innocent people in fishing expeditions.


28 posted on 08/17/2008 10:06:05 AM PDT by hunter112 (The 'straight talk express' gets the straight finger express from me.)
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To: Issaquahking
“Again, if the POS outright owns the vehicle, they have no case. If a loan is made to buy the car, then, with permission from the financing house, you can place the GPS. “

I do not have an opinion one way or another on this particular subject (GPS to track a vehicle) only because I haven't had a chance to sit and think about it.

HOWEVER:

Your statement makes me wonder. By your reasoning, the leo’s can come in my house anytime they want if all they do is ask the mortgage company. I am not sure I like that idea.

29 posted on 08/17/2008 10:06:35 AM PDT by Nik Naym (If Republicans are your problem, Democrats aren't the answer!)
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To: Eric Blair 2084
They make it look like it's a good thing, now. However, as with almost any other means of law enforcement it WILL be abused.

I can see this sort of thing being used on a massive scale. All in the name of "safety" dontcha know.

30 posted on 08/17/2008 10:08:24 AM PDT by unixfox (The 13th Amendment Abolished Slavery, The 16th Amendment Reinstated It !)
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To: Eric Blair 2084
"... The break in the case relied largely on a crime-fighting tool they would rather not discuss...."

So, of course, the Washington Post discusses it to help the criminals and hinder the police.

31 posted on 08/17/2008 10:13:30 AM PDT by Albion Wilde (Alaska has the oil. The Senate has the dipsticks.)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

I think the same there needs to be some rules.


32 posted on 08/17/2008 10:15:29 AM PDT by org.whodat (Republicans should support the SAM Walton business model, and then drill???)
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To: Eric Blair 2084

I liked seeing OJ Simpson (Norberg) get caught underneath the van in Naked Gun while trying to plant such a device.


33 posted on 08/17/2008 10:19:05 AM PDT by School of Rational Thought (Truthism Watch)
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To: Issaquahking
If the POS outright owns the car, I have a problem under the fourth amendment. That said though, if a financial house has ownership in the car (they financed), and authorizes the GPS, no problem!

By this rationale, any property with a mortgage could be searched with the consent of the mortgage holder.

In fact, even a rented home cannot be searched without the consent of the tenant, even if the landlord agrees. And the owner of a car or property with a note against it is at least a partial owner, not just a renter.

34 posted on 08/17/2008 10:20:16 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (qui)
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To: TheThinker
I’ve never believed invasion of privacy is out of bounds unless it occurs on your own property. Even the fourth amendment only says you should be secure in your person and personal effects and to me that says that the police shouldn’t be able to assault you and steal your property. I have no trouble with the state knowing where someone is if they’re under suspicion. The state still has to prove guilt beyond a resonable doubt and grant all legal protections during trial, which is substantial. I don’t care if there are cameras in public places, either. If I’m not doing anything wrong, there is photographic proof that I’m not. The logically it follows putting a chip on a person or some other tracking device would be OK.
35 posted on 08/17/2008 10:25:05 AM PDT by School of Rational Thought (Truthism Watch)
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To: unixfox
In my humble and uninformed opinion, the legality of the police using GPS tracking on a suspects automobile is determined by whether the suspect has a reasonable expectation of privacy in his movements. As the suspect is moving on public streets in full view of all, he has no reasonable expectation of privacy and following him by either human eyes or GPS satellites would be admissable under our constitution.

Also, as long as the GPS device is attached to the outside of the vehicle while it is on public property and no entry of the vehicle is made by the police, the suspects reasonable expectation of privacy in this area has not been violated.

However, I wouldn't bet on the 9th District Court agreeing with me.

36 posted on 08/17/2008 10:32:41 AM PDT by DJ Taylor (Once again our country is at war, and once again the Democrats have sided with our enemy.)
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To: Nik Naym
I have two places, one I own outright, makes it mine, as long as I pay my tax. The other, where I am working at, is a rental, used for working in another state, and have no ownership claim.

I don't expect to have the rights of a property owner with a vested interest. A mortgage company is a partner in a financial sense. They have a right to protect their portion of the investment. With probable cause They could probably do quite a bit towards getting listening devices installed, a GPS could be in play. If I was that concerned, I'd make appropriate moves in life to get another place 100% paided for.

Probable cause could be established by having a camera on a public utility pole, watching the street in front of my driveway. Record when I leave, when I return. If I'm gone only during the crime times, this should qualify for reasonable cause. Reason more to watch a person of interest. It doesn't convict me, but it lays a bridge to further investigation.
37 posted on 08/17/2008 10:33:59 AM PDT by Issaquahking (Obamacide - how to kill a nation in one easy election.)
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To: Issaquahking

You need to focus here. Think about the essence of what the technology is doing. It is merely replacing something which is allowable under the 4th Amendment - which is simply tailing someone. Making visual observations in public places is not something with 4th Amendment implications. The point here is that the police do not have an infinite budget for manpower and equipment to be able to cover every suspect with a round the clock tail. GPS solves that pretty inexpensively.

When you are in a private place, particularly your home, you have an expectation of privacy, and a long line of cases decided by the United States Supreme Court has shaped the contours of the areas protected by the 4th Amendment which require a warrant or a particular exception before they can be searched or surveilled. Surveillance inside the home has been curtailed - one recent case involved thermal imaging to detect where people were within a house - detected from outside the house at night. Without a court authorized warrant that was considered an impermissible search. As I say, if the GPS system could be programmed to trace only those points which were on public roads, or in public view, I don’t think there is going to be a problem. As to installing in/attaching to the car, that will require a warrant.

An example of where you could expect privacy and where GPS should not be allowed would be - hypothetically if you were the owner of the Biltmore Estate or perhaps the Hearst Ranch in CA - enormous properties of several hundred thousand acres. It would be very possible to be on those properties and to not be visible from any vantage point outside the property (a public highway nearby, etc.) There, someone would have a reasonably expectation of privacy, particularly at night, and any kind of surveillance would require a warrant (overflight with thermal imaging, etc.) I would suggest that is the kind of situation where the GPS signal should not be admissible, either, absent a warrant.

So what you would end up with would be a race of movements which would end (and then begin again) at the suspect’s driveway. Good enough for crime fighting purposes, and no 4th amendment problem.


38 posted on 08/17/2008 10:34:23 AM PDT by Wally_Kalbacken
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To: mountainlion

Removing the rapist tool of choice should work too.


39 posted on 08/17/2008 10:56:54 AM PDT by hdstmf
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To: Eric Blair 2084
No one caught this?
The break in the case relied largely on a crime-fighting tool they would rather not discuss.
And thos widely-read newspaper prints: They put a Global Positioning System device on Foltz's van, which allowed them to track his movements.

That like the media braying about "cop killer bullets" at a time when cops wearing body armor was not widely known. Soon after, cops were getting killed from head shots.

40 posted on 08/17/2008 10:58:01 AM PDT by Oatka (A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." –Bertrand de Jouvenel)
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