Posted on 04/19/2010 1:46:54 AM PDT by Cindy
No ‘playing’ here.
You mistated my comments to fit a bizarre narrative you hold dear, apparently.
Even thought I never ONCE disagreed with your assertions about the governments culpability.
Your only real, consistent, objection throughout these exchanges is my stating the obvious: Koresch’s last decision, ‘not going to come out’ got his followers killed.
No rational person disputes this. You do. Speaks volumes.
Now we’re ‘done’.
It was bizzare. I'll grant that, the whole event was.
Your only real, consistent, objection throughout these exchanges is my stating the obvious: Koresch’s last decision, ‘not going to come out’ got his followers killed. No rational person disputes this. You do. Speaks volumes.
After being bombarded with some interesting sounds (like rabbits being killed), sleep deprived, shot, besieged, tormented as the facility is 'buzzed' daily by armored vehicles which crush the cars and shove them off, and all the nasty things which were sanitized out of the CNN broadcasts, would you reasonably expect anyone to surrender? Twenty did surrender, early on in the siege.
The only reason Koresh's last decision was his last is that the Government decided to assault the building complex one last time. By the time the building had been flooded with Methylene Chloride vapor and CS, how many could surrender? How many had already been picked off by the HRT or the Delta teams on the ground?
Did you even ever bother to dig up the MSDS on Methylene Chloride? Did you know it burns? They sprayed the building full of it, fired pyrotechnic gas rounds into the building and blamed the fire on Koresh?
I think the Government intended to destroy a crime scene, and the crime was theirs.
YMMV.
I didn’t bother with your assertons about the governments screw ups. I agreed. Sheesh.
My reading comprehension skills are just fine. You have yet to make the statement that the Feds bear the primary responsibility for the deaths.
"My view has remained consistent. The government screwed up big time. But Koresch, who believed he was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, was a nutcase that got his people killed in the end due to his refusal to surrender after over 50 days."
Yeah, consistently wrong. "If" Koresh was insane, he can't be held accountable for his actions. But you used the word "aggrandizement" to describe the situation. I like that, so let's look at where there REAL aggrandizement in the situation was. First instance, the BATFE was aggrandizing itself with a grandiose, large scale, "dynamic entry" operation, accompanied by invited reporters. Second instance, continued escalation at every decision point, for one and one reason only, that the agency(ies) involved would "lose face" if they pulled back. "Aggrandizement" at every point along the way. So tell me again, who was primarily responsible for Waco???
‘My reading comprehension skills are just fine. You have yet to make the statement that the Feds bear the primary responsibility for the deaths.’
Apparently, they aren’t.
Please point out where you said the feds bear PRIMARY responsibility for Waco. Statements like "the Feds made mistakes" are not the same.
I have to wonder why you are so anxious to defend the jack-booted bastards. Did you have relatives among the assault teams?? Or perhaps you were there in person??
Give it a rest. I’ve said from my first post the feds screwed this up from day one.
I have to wonder why you want to rally around a nutcase that claimed he was the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ, would arise from the dead after three days, demanded every male member of his cult gave up his wife or daughter for his sexual pleasure, exclusively by the way, and in the end decided it was preferable that everybody in the building die rather than surrender, by either self inflicted gunshot wounds, inflicted gunshot wounds, smoke inhalation, or flat out burning to death.
And no, my apparently conspiracy laden ‘friend’ I wasn’t there, I don’t have relatives working for the feds assault teams.
You may now return to examining crop circles.
Sure, and then turned right around and said it was all Koresh's fault. Constant repetition of a wrong position doesn't make it right.
"I have to wonder why you want to rally around a nutcase that claimed he was the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ.."
Because even nutcases are supposed to have rights under the Constitution. And because of the increasing tendency of law enforcement at all levels to use "smash in and take'em down" tactics. I'm sorry, but use of these tactics should be outlawed, with the single exception of an active hostage situation. Having a drug dealer successfully flush some drugs down a toilet is simply not worth the risk of having "bad things" happen to innocent people with only a "we're sorry" when the thugs screw it up.
Here is the story in six lines:
Koresh was a deluded cult leader.
Koresh could of easily been taken into custody by the local Sheriff.
The A$$clowns of Federal LEO’s (BATF) wanted to play with their new SWAT Team.
BATF blew the raid.
FBI and Reno lost patience.
OUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT KILLLED women and kids with prejudice and fired on those trying to exit the compound.
I never said ‘it was all Koresh’s fault’. You can’t find a post of mine of the course of the three days to support this, any more than the kook theory I ‘have family working for the assault teams’...(eyes rolling)
I said the last decision Koresch made was horrific, and got every one of his followers still in the building killed. I said he had the chance for over 50 days to come out and surrender, and they’d all be ALIVE TODAY if he had done so.
I said he was a terrible ‘leader’ because his insane decision got them all killed.
They had ‘rights’. They choose not to exercise them according to the Constitution. It doesn’t matter ‘how’ they ended up barracaded in that building. Once the shooting stopped, they had to come out, and allow our judicial process to move forward. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Using you view, the Constitution is only applicable ‘selectively’.
Its not. No matter how much you try to avoid it, the fact remains they had almsot TWO MONTHS to surrender. They made a fatal error collectively, when they decided their insane ‘messiah’ should be followed to the end.
Bottom line is you keep ignoring the key fact here at the end, Koresch was NUTS. And his followers choose to follow a NUTCASE into history’s dustbin. In that aspect, they were no different than the lunatic that talked all his followers into committing suicide so as to ‘hitch a ride’ on a passing comet a few years ago.
Thank you!
Utter nonsense. With hundreds of reporters, total 24/7 live coverage, he was not going to be ‘executed on sight’ especially walking out of that compound on live tv.
Sheesh.
In my quest to bring Lon Hourichi to justice I interviewed many of the Federal employees involved in Waco and that were at Ruby Ridge. Years later when my son became a D-boy I was able to talk to several (retired) D-boys that were there and are sick about what happened. 20 days in when Koresh made it clear he was not coming out the word was passed down that any movement on his part to surrender was to be considered a trick and would put agents lives at risk. What does that mean to you?
Since I just found Alamo-Girl’s website yesterday, I thought y’all might be interested.
http://alamo-girl.com/waco.htm
There is a great timeline, as well as theories. Mostly pulled from news articles of the time.
Very interesting WMD Theory:
http://alamo-girl.com/101.htm
Also, here is a list of the dead, with 2 degrees of separation from Clinton:
http://alamo-girl.com/0463.htm
Notice that of the BATF agents killed at WACO, 4 were ex-Clinton bodyguards.
The WMD theory was mine and it was based on the otherwise unexplainable involvement of the Biological/Chemical Military officer, the Secretary of Defense, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Delta Force and England's SAS.
You are quite welcome.
I can tell you spent some time compiling everything in one place.
It makes it easier for someone like me who was in college (and had my head up my ...) when all this went down to learn some stuff the media kept hidden.
Hopefully one day all will be made public.
Thank you for your encouragements! And I’m confident, whether in this life or the next, everything will be known.
AG’s collection is awesome and very detailed with stuff you cannot find anywhere else.
Waco is truly a focal point in history. So many thigns came together that would of never met in other timelines it is spooky. More things to ponder than the JFK assassination.
If we understood Waco, Vince Foster, OK city, and TWA 800 we’d all be a lot better off. You could add a few more to the list, but those would be MY top four.
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