Economists Toast 20 Years Of NAFTA; Critics Sit Out The Party

NPR ^ | 08 Dec 2013 | Marilyn Geewax

[Reaganez]

The proof is in the pudding.

Free economies get rich.

Mercantilist economies get poor.

Over the long term.

You can subdivide statistics all you like to cherry pick data and look at what happens during a recession. The Mexican economy is no where near large enough to push the US economy into recession. You have to be moron of epic proportions to believe that. And “ compassionate conservative” is a euphemism for European social democracy not American capitalism.

But over the long term trade creates jobs and better paying jobs. A growing and more prosperous economy but that also requires the right policies at home to educate/train workers and economic liberty within our own domestic economy.

You only have to look at import substitution economies like North Korea to know controlled economies are a FAILURE.

[Cringing Negativism Network]

BRING.

BACK.

AMERICAN.

JOBS.

[FreedomNotSafety]

Many on this forum believe the gov should manage trade. By some magical leap they hate everything else the gov does but think it becomes a genius when managing trade.

Then there are those who claim to love liberty and freedom but think they should be able to force me to buy from and sell to whom they choose.

Our next battle on Free Republic will be about the freedom of those who own oil and gas to sell it to whom they wish. I have already seen a few here that believe we should “keep it here” so that they can benefit from lower prices.

Nafta is a managed trade agreement, free trade is what happens in the abscence of laws and interference.

[Irenic]

Do you believe subsidies for industry should be stopped?

[Reaganez]

There is no such thing as ungoverned trade except for illicit drugs, weapons, and prostitutes.

NAFTA is a Treaty that lowered trade barriers.

That is a step in the right direction.

[Reaganez]

In a perfect world where we lower corporate tax rates the equivalent amount yes. Otherwise we are at a competitive disadvantage.

There are stupid and even more stupid subsidies for industry.

We should try to eliminate the most stupid first.

[Cringing Negativism Network]

No. It is time to return American jobs, to America.

Bring back American jobs.

[FreedomNotSafety]

Not sure what you mean by ungoverned trade. We are a nation of laws but we are free to do as wish free of any interference and punishment from our government so long as there is not a law prohibiting it.

As of now there are many things to buy and sell that do not fall under the preview of our government.

[Oatka]

It wasn’t Free Trade that killed the jobs, it was all the regulations that most companies have to spend mucho grande dollars to comply with that killed those jobs.

That's the standard BS the Free Traders spout. No doubt in many instances that was true, but NAFTA and its cheap labor angle did far more to kill 'em, and the manufacturers would come right out and say it.

[driftdiver]

How does NAFTA make the American economy free? There are a multitude of controls on the economy.

Your inane slogans have nothing to do with reality.

Lets make it simple. Your town has jobs, it has companies, it produces things which it sells. People make money and they spend it locally.

Under NAFTA all the jobs and production (means of production - sound familiar) are moved out of town to be replaced with cheaper prices. Which of course the people can’t afford because of the great sucking sound of all their money makes as it leaves town.

[driftdiver]

NAFTA helped Mexico and hurt America.

[driftdiver]

Yeah but all those unemployed can buy stuff cheaper. /s

Never mind that the cost of living is higher in many countries. They seem to do ok without nafta type wealth redistribution.

[Jonty30]

When the price of goods fall to a certain point, the labour costs become a burden to produce that product. A manufacturer has two choices, lower the wages or raise production rates.

If, due to technological limitations, one cannot raise the rate of production, than the cuts must come from the labour costs. If it cannot come from cutting labour costs, than the factory closes.

This process would happen at any rate, regardless of whether NAFTA existed or not. It can be argued that NAFTA sped up the process, sure. However, NAFTA did not change the essence of the process.

[driftdiver]

Sure it did. Thats why all those companies moved overseas so quickly.

[Jonty30]

If NAFTA was primarily responsible, tell me when the US signed such an agreement with China?

[driftdiver]

NAFTA is a part of the whole.

[DoughtyOne]

The proof is in the pudding.

Free economies get rich.

Okay, then in your opinion, our economy is getting rich.

Mercantilist economies get poor.

Oh I don't know, China through monetary manipulation is charging between 30-40% tariffs.  Are they getting poor?

If you think you're going to win the day on this by prattling out old truisms, you're in for a bit of a surprise.

Over the long term.

Okay.  Is twenty years long term?  Just how long a term do we need to have?

We conducted trade before 1992 didn't we?  Did we go "ALL IN" as we did from roughly 1992 on?  NO!  Wasn't that long term?  Didn't our nation become second to none under that form of trade?  HELL YES IT DID.  You tell me, was our nation more successful prior to 1992, or less successful?  Were our workers more or less fully employed?  How has it been since 1992?  Are our workers more or less fully employed?  What was happening in the early part of this century before the depression?  During Bush's  first term, we lost 800,000 jobs.  Generally in that period of time we add 7 million or so.  In Bush's second term we added jobs, but overall during his two terms, we only added 1.8% more jobs.  During that peirod of time we generally add 10-12 million jobs.  What was the biggest key factor of change?  TRADE!  We decided to handle things differently.  There was a sea change of outsourcing.  And you know what, I and other people told you exactly what we were going to get for that.  And now that it has happened, we get the, "Well..., you can cherry pick, but by and large..."  Hogwash!  We vastly undercut our own tax base.  We vastly increased our welfare, SSDI, unemployment, and flooded the nation with cheap labor at the same time.  It was a complete cluster F of the U. S. Citizen caught between the Leftists and the idiots on the right.

Our deficits rose.  Wages were flat.  Households were hard hit.  Less than 50% of our workers have it as well off today as they did in 1992.  Cherry picking?  Seriously?  That's the best you can do?

MODERATION IN ALL THINGS

You can subdivide statistics all you like to cherry pick data and look at what happens during a recession. The Mexican economy is no where near large enough to push the US economy into recession. You have to be moron of epic proportions to believe that. And “ compassionate conservative” is a euphemism for European social democracy not American capitalism.

Blah blah blah blah blah, thank you Barney Frank.  That's his level of reasoning if you don't get the connection.  Did I say Mexico and Central and South American trade caused all our problems?  Ah..., NO! Nice try.  That trade plus outsourceing, plus China, plus a lot of other places where we pushed work off-shore, plus opening up the flood-gates to illegal immigration, contributed to this mess we find ourselves in.  Boy you guys were throwing out the big promises before we went this route.  Global jobs will create an atomosphere where recessions and depressions will be a thing of the past.  This is the best things about it.  We'll grow, other nations will grow, why it will just set the world on fire.  It's was bull s--t then.  It's bull s--t now.  Same lies.  Same attempts to blur the lines of reasoning.  Were is all the benefit of the globalist deflation of the United States at the betterment of places like China?  Point to five good things that came from these measures.

Which nation is doing better today, China or the United States?  Whose employees have seen the most rise in their wages?  Whose standard of living has increased by the most?  Where has capital gone?  Is the United States becoming even stronger, or is Asia rapidly becoming the economic hub of the planet?

Take a look at infrastructure.  Who is building as fast as they can, and who is rotting away?  Asia is on fire.  We're languishing.  Where are all the promised benefits?

But over the long term trade creates jobs and better paying jobs. A growing and more prosperous economy but that also requires the right policies at home to educate/train workers and economic liberty within our own domestic economy.

Yep, trade sure created jobs here at home.  Service sector jobs that is...  Growing economy?  Really?  Education and train workers for what?  Kids are graduating college today and there are very little jobs to be had.  Sure you can point to Liberal Arts types of degrees too, but those were taking place in the 80s and 90s also.  That isn'twhy we don't have jobs here and you know it.

You only have to look at import substitution economies like North Korea to know controlled economies are a FAILURE.

Yeah, well you do have that don't you.  Nevermind that the U. S. looks more like a ghost town than a thriving economy.  We have 25%+ of our workforse idle, but by gosh we're still better than North Korea.  Mighty powerful argument there.

As I said, HOGWASH!

[DoughtyOne]

I haven’t seen figures regarding what NAFTA did for Mexico in a while. Right after it started, there were a lot of businesses that moved down there. Before long, they moved right back or off-shore to China. Mexico didn’t benefit the way it was planned. At least I don’t think it did.

[Jonty30]

NAFTA is only between Canada, US, and Mexico. NAFTA did not have anything to do with factories and businesses moving to China. If NAFTA caused jib losses, all those jobs should have gone to these two countries. While some did, it wasn’t a mass exodus in that regard.

The reason why all those jobs went to China, aside from the number of regulations, was because of low labour costs, due to basically slave labour, well as the fact that China subsidized its currency to the point where it didn’t really have one of value.

[driftdiver]

lol amazing that people still argue that its a good thing considering the state of our country.

amazing