Pat Robertson begs Ken Ham to shut up

Salon Media Group ^ | 02/05/2014 | Elias Isquith

[TXnMA]

"The problem becomes, if you believe that the Creation story is wrong, what else do you disbelieve about the Bible?"

I most certainly do not believe "that the Creation story is wrong"!

In fact, as a Bible-believing Christian who is also a physical scientist, I believe (and am working to create a graphic presentation/video that illustrates) that mankind's accumulated "scientific" knowledge of Creation is -- just now -- "catching up with" the truths revealed in Genesis.

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However, I am convinced that your (and other YECs') primitive misinterpretation of the timing of it is wrong.
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I do believe that, just as Scripture says, God created ex nihilo (and formed) "all that is" in six (6) of His "workdays".

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What I do not believe is that arrogant, self-centered, self-important, created humankind has any right to belittle or downgrade Almighty God -- by insisting that the pace of HIS days (and the timing of all His created universe, and all its history) -- must be determined by the inconstant spin rate He imposed upon this particular ball of mud upon which He decided to place us.

As one of my very favorite fellow Christians (and Freepers) has repeatedly stated:

"Man is not the measure of God."

[PapaNew]

Thoughtful post TXnMA explaining how your faith helps your conclusions.

It is amazing to me how, as with the Ken Ham debate and the 1925 Scopes trial, so in this thread, the issue of creationism versus Darwinism is sidelined for a discussion of the age of the earth.

The issue of creationism versus Darwinism is not "the age of rocks" (Scopes trial terminology) but the origin of living things. The heart of the matter is 1) the abundant examples of intelligent design (ID) as overwhelming evidence of an Intelligent Designer (which also comports with Romans 1:20) and 2) the utter lack of evidence of transference between basic animal groups, essential to Darwinism. Done correctly, it is hardly a debate, the evidence is so one-sided. Teaching our children the truth in school rather than fables is one important reason to win this debate.

Although not on point in the creationism/Darwinism discussion and maybe not as important, the discussion of the Genesis and the age of the earth and the age of the creation of living things is still an interesting issue I think. My take is that the earth is already in existence in Genesis 1:2 where the record of time and creation as we know it begins. I see a distinction in Genesis (and in science) between the age of the earth (Genesis 1:1) which could be zillions of years old and the age of living things including man (Genesis 1:2-2:25). The time between Adam and the present can be traced Biblically to around 6000 years.

[HamiltonJay]

Sorry, I challenge you to point to me anywhere in the Bible where the number 6,000 or even the number 10,000 is mentioned... Or to keep it relative that Christ was sent to earth 4,000 years after Adam or 8,000 years.

These dates don’t come from any word of God, to claim God claims the earth is X years old is complete fallacy, its disingenuous at any theological level.

The reality is we have documented cultures who were writing and leaving written records long before 6,000 years ago.

“Sorry - that analogy escapes me. Jesus is not buried. He is risen and sits at the right hand of the Father in Heaven. But I get the drift — you reject that the Earth is on the order of 6000 years old.”

Really? it escapes you? You are denying the Bible now? Jesus was indeed buried in a tomb and the tomb was sealed. This analogy is exactly accurate, the young earth theory is just as nonsensical as this overlaying a body over a city and claiming where the heart would be located is the location of Christ’s tomb.

To claim a young earth is somehow the word of God is to be so frankly ignorant of theology that its indeed nonsense theologically. God did not grant man reason to then say, ignore reason and make up your own reality, and the 6000 or 10000 year claim is indeed just making it up. To criticize t is not to criticize the infallibility of God, but to openly mock the folly of man.

The very idea that science and theology are in conflict is idiotic, and a stand only held by people on both sides who are too damned pig headed to remotely accept THEY DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY DON’T KNOW. This debate wasn’t a debate on ID or Evolution, because it never got there because the insane claim of the earth is only a few thousand years stands so at odds with the empirical evidence that a true debate on ID vs Evolution never occurred.

Ham was a piss poor standard barer to take up the argument for ID, and as such there really wasn’t a debate about ID or Evolution but a mockery of the entire reason the debate was claimed to be about.

[El Cid]

Sorry, I challenge you to point to me anywhere in the Bible where the number 6,000 or even the number 10,000 is mentioned... These dates don’t come from any word of God, to claim God claims the earth is X years old is complete fallacy, its disingenuous at any theological level.

For some reason, God took the time to give us a time-line starting from Adam to Moses (Adam created in Day 6, Seth born when Adam was 130 years old, Enos born .... etc). It is disingenuous to claim that this time-line is not in the Bible. Bishop Ussher, Isaac Newton, Johan Kepler, Martin Luther, etc all independently came up with the 4000 B.C. marker (plus or minus a few years -- as the co-regencies of various kings of Judah could be interpreted differently).

The reality is we have documented cultures who were writing and leaving written records long before 6,000 years ago.

Your "reality" is based on what? Would you stake your life on the "reality" of this evidence?

Really? it escapes you? You are denying the Bible now? Jesus was indeed buried in a tomb and the tomb was sealed. This analogy is exactly accurate, the young earth theory is just as nonsensical as this overlaying a body over a city and claiming where the heart would be located is the location of Christ’s tomb.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I admit, when I first read your quote: "...where Jesus was believed buried..." I thought you were saying "where Jesus was believed buried" - and not "where Jesus was believed to have been buried before He rose from the dead". But now that you've cleared up that misunderstanding -- I still have no idea what you are talking about regarding "...this overlaying a body over a city and claiming where the heart would be located is the location of Christ's tomb..." Is this something important to you? It doesn't make any sense to me.

...ignorant ... nonsense ... ignore reason and make up your own reality ... indeed just making it up.... The very idea that science and theology are in conflict is idiotic [hey, we found something we can agree on] ... too damned pig headed to remotely accept THEY DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY DON’T KNOW....insane claim of the earth is only a few thousand years stands so at odd .... etc.

Ok, you disagree that the Earth is <10,000 years old.

[A Formerly Proud Canadian]

So, in other words, to borrow from the words of BJ Klintoon, "It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' 'day' is." Please, show me elsewhere in the Bible where the Hebrew 'yom' (day) means an indefinitely longer length of time, such as you propose in Genesis 1. Also where, in your point of view, does yom revert back to meaning approximately 24 hours instead of an indefinitely longer length of time?

It must have been before Genesis 4 and 5 where we have a list of men who lived as old as 969 years. Or, is that too, a 'misinterpretation' of timing? Was Methuselah perhaps 353,685,000 years old and Adam 339,450,000 years old when they died instead of 969 and 930 years of age, respectively? (You are a smart fellow, so see 2 Peter 3:8 for the math)

You say that you are a Bible-believing Christian. So do LDS (with their proviso that the Bible is correct 'insofar as it was correctly translated') Even Muslims claim that the Bible contains God's revelation but is corrupted. If you believe that there are errors, then once again, I must iterate that you doubt God's Word. 'Cafeteria Christianity' is nothing less that worshipping a 'form' of God, rather than 'God', always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. (2 Timothy 3)

[TXnMA]

Actually, I have no big problem with something in the ballpark of 6,000 earthly years having elapsed since God (Spirit) created the first Man in His image (spirit) by forming (developing) his body from pre-existing, created elements, and then "ensouling" that man by breathing into him God's own Spirit.

(FWIW, & AFAIK, no one has ever claimed that souls leave an imprint in the fossil record.)

Where we may differ considerably is that I also have no problem accepting the likelihood (borne out by the fossil and archaeological record) that during His forming (devlopment, optimization ) of humanity's physical and mental structure, God had populated the earth such that Adam & Eve found themselves surrounded by a diverse populace fully their mental and physical equals. (Thus explaining the availability of compatible wives for Cain & Abel.)

Otherwise, how did a single man and his (cloned, genetically identical) wife generate the astounding genetic diversity found in today's human race -- in just 6,000 years?

Evidence for fully (physically and mentally, if not spiritually) developed humans (even on this continent) at least twice 6,000 years ago is absurdly easy to come by:

FYI, I have personally found one of these (Clovis Point) in situ...

And as a lithic technologist, I can attest to the exceptionally high visuo-motor and mental skills required to produce one of these masterpieces of craftsmanship...

[HamiltonJay]

You wish to argue belief against observation, that is the fallacy of the young earth. The idea that mankind has walked the earth for a mere 6000 years is not supported by the facts, let alone that the earth itself has a lifespan measured in thousands of years.

You wish to take the bible in a vacuum, that is your choice, you choose to do that, its a belief, which is fine, but it is not supported by observable fact. Which facts you ask? The plethora of historical documentations from across the globe. Mankind has been writing (not merely existing, not putting pictures on cave walls), but actually using written language for more than 6000 years. We know the rough timelines of dynasties in Asia, India, the Middle East, even the new world, yes even the new world has human civilizations that predate the 6000 year claims.

To claim the world is 6000 or 10000 years old is to flat out deny observable evidence in favor of a belief... and you are free to believe what you like, but that belief is not supported by any observable fact.

While the 3 hour debate wasn’t really a debate, it did bring about a few key points that Ham flat out ignored. If you take the timeline of the Bible, and even your concession that perhaps 10000 is a more realistic number, you wind up with what according to Ham would be approximately 2000 total individual animals of 1000 “kinds” (his claim not mine) becoming the mulititude that we now visually know to exist in about 8,500 years. But not only those we know to exist today, but those we know existed from historical documents that are now extinct (And thats just in the documents from about 0AD to Today, not from historical documentations before that. With that sort of diversity required to just get to where we are today, post the flood which according to the Biblical dates is roughly ~1550 years from Adam to the flood, and about ~2000 from adam to his Noahs death) we are to believe that this all happened without ever being noticed or recorded by any living soul on the earth? That new species were sprouting out ad dozens if not hundreds or hundreds of thousands a day and not a single sole anywhere noticed or recorded it?

The reality is, we do have documents, many of them from cultures around the globe that existed during the time frame your belief tells you they could not.. yet they do. You are welcome to your belief, but your belief is not backed up by any empirical evidence, and that is why the “young earth” belief is so easy to disprove, and why the debate really had nothing to with ID or Evolution, because it never really got into that serious discussion, but was dragged down by a belief that pretty much ensured a true discussion about ID or Evolution would not occur.

I understand people believe the earth may be a few thousand years old, just as I know there are people who believe if they blow themselves up and kill jews in the process they will be rewarded by their god, but these are BELIEFS not things that withstand reasonable analysis.

You believe the documented dates in the bible (the word of god) and a whole lot of supposition by the very fallible hand of man give you all that you need. You reject all other tangible evidence recording just as accurately if not far more so, dates and timelines that counteract your belief. You are indeed free to do so, but that is your belief, and not something that is empirically observable and provable. The counter evidence is not something that needs to be taken purely on faith, we have the historical records of countless societies that attest quite well that what you believe does not coincide with the multitude of other evidence.

In fact, going by the 6000 date that Ham throws around, the reality is that the first Pharaoh of Egypt would have had to been in power right around the time Noah was born, let alone after the flood had occurred. Are we to deny the Egyptians existed? Or that they did not perceive and record time as the Hebrews did? Did their empire somehow get spared the flood that killed all life other than Noah? Yet somehow rose once again from the ashes after the flood and never have recorded the fact their nation was utterly destroyed but rose again?

Or are we more likely to accept that the 6000 age was derived by the very fallible hand of man and not correct? YOu don’t have to go to things like carbon dating to prove the earth is more than 6000 years old, we have as Mr Ham likes to state people who OBSERVED it and wrote about it. To hold that believe you must absolutely deny the recorded observations by those who lived it and did record it.

[TXnMA]

Scripture is without error. The same does not hold for YOUR interpretation of it.

Do you understand the concept or "relativistic time"?

[DoodleDawg]

An eyewitness account by someone who was there and someone who is entirely trustworthy.

God Himself put pen to parchment and wrote the Bible? Who knew?

[betty boop]

Otherwise, how did a single man and his (cloned, genetically identical) wife generate the astounding genetic diversity found in today's human race -- in just 6,000 years? ... Evidence for fully (physically and mentally, if not spiritually) developed humans (even on this continent) at least twice 6,000 years ago is absurdly easy to come by.

Indeed — "at least twice 6,000 years ago." Plus I need to mention the Lascaux Cave paintings, which are thought to be ~20,000 years old. I recognize these beautiful paintings as works of art — which is a spiritual activity....

[El Cid]

RE: 267

Much too long to copy down and respond, so I'll just respond to a couple of comments.
What is this 'plethora of historical documents'? What is their reliability? What was used to confirm the dates? Pretending that it is reality to know when the first Pharaoh lived stretches the definition of 'reality'. The 'King list' of the Pharaohs came from Manethos who lived around 300 BC, nearly 2000 years after the fact. How many of the Pharaohs were parallel rulers is unknown. I.e., to use this as a dating source in not reality nor reliable.

I am not sure where you were going with the number of land animal species.

[El Cid]

God Himself put pen to parchment and wrote the Bible? Who knew?

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness ...

[DoodleDawg]

So what you're saying is that the person who wrote the Bible wasn't present at creation, contrary to your earlier post? Thanks for the clarification.

[Fuzz]

“God had populated the earth such that Adam & Eve found themselves surrounded by a diverse populace fully their mental and physical equals.”

God created a man, then a woman then a diverse populace for them to interact with?

[MHGinTN]

Gobekli Tepe dates to at least 12,000 years ago and the architecture begs the issue of an advanced civ which must predate the Stone circles.

[betty boop]

Gobekli Tepe dates to at least 12,000 years ago and the architecture begs the issue of an advanced civ which must predate the Stone circles. [e.g., of Stonehenge.]

Indeed dear brother in Christ! It appears the human historical record cannot be fit into a 6,000 year timeframe. Gobekli Tepe, like the Lascaux cave art, provides further support of that hypothesis.

Thank you so much for your telling observation!

[A Formerly Proud Canadian]

I don’t have a ‘lock’ on scripture and, sorry to burst your bubble, but neither do you, nor does even Billy Graham. In Heaven, I believe there will be so many truths revealed that we will each be in awe for 10,000+ years of Eternity. I am not prepared to get into a long drawn out discussion about time dilation. There are many unexplained issues with the various shades of each THEORY, as there are with the ‘end-times’ THEORIES.

The time spent debating this issue is time spent being side-tracked by the Adversary, time that could be spent in more productive pursuits. If you wish to spend your time debating fellow Christians, rather than sharing the Gospel with others, have at it. I’ve wasted enough time already.

[Karl Spooner]

God created a man, then a woman then a diverse populace for them to interact with?

A little out of skew. The population was already here. That is what Cain was worried about.

[hosepipe]

WHAT IF.... dating schemes get progressively wrong, (
inaccurate, flawed, bogus, hyper, fantastic, unfaithful) as they get older?..
-OR- are merely a gambit for funding..

However; mountains didn’t just pop up from the ocean floor like pop corn.. (probably)...
I’m suspicious of anything over 20 years old... maybe 40...

Heck when I was a kid George Washington was a good guy AND
Mao was a parasitical mass killer of his own people..
Things change..

When “somebody” tells me he KNOWS what happened one million years ago..
I know he is blowin smoke up _______ (a dark place..)

Or some human thinks He(or someone he knows) is God’s representative on earth..
My eyebrows go up... strange noises come out of my mouth..

Entertainment comes in many forms..

[Kackikat]

“Heck when I was a kid George Washington was a good guy AND
Mao was a parasitical mass killer of his own people..
Things change”

Only Progressives rewrite history....the rest of us still see George Washington as a good guy, and Mao...what you said!