Exclusive—Victor Davis Hanson: California Is a Confederate Society with ‘Sick Fixation’ on Race

Breitbart ^ | 27 Dec 2021 | ROBERT KRAYCHIK

[DiogenesLamp]

That younger people be taught how our government was created.

[jeffersondem]

“Is this before or after we’re supposed to teach that . . . segregation didn’t exist in the South until after the rebellion?”

To learn more about the history of segregation, read:
https://www.history.com/topics/black-history/segregation-united-states

Note well the paragraph: “The first steps toward official segregation came in the form of “Black Codes.” These were laws passed throughout the South starting around 1865, that dictated most aspects of Black peoples’ lives, including where they could work and live.”

[x]

If that were true there would be archival records of such troops. There aren't. This is an example of the rumors spread in the fog of war. Likewise the story that Jeff Davis was there on a white horse. The "bullet in their pockets" sounds like a weird rhetorical detail thrown in by Douglass.

Go here for more

[DoodleDawg]

That younger people be taught how our government was created.

The true version? Or jeffersondem's version?

[BroJoeK]

Pelham: "You should just number your usual propaganda screeds to save time.
We’ve all seen them before and no one is impressed.
Its like listening to some old soviet drone on about the glories of the revolution"

You're speaking of yourself, of course -- pro-Confederate, America-hater, typical Democrat, your "glorious revolution"... of 1861!

[DoodleDawg]

Note well the paragraph: “The first steps toward official segregation came in the form of “Black Codes.”

Note this paragraph as well: "Segregation is the practice of requiring separate housing, education and other services for people of color. Segregation was made law several times in 18th and 19th-century America as some believed that Black and white people were incapable of coexisting." If segregation existed by law in the south in the 18th and early 19th centuries then wouldn't that be 'official segregation' as well?

[BroJoeK]

jeffersondem: "To save our country it will be essential to teach young students why a southerner proposed secession from Britain..."

And every one of those Founding Southerners opposed slavery as a moral principle and wanted to see it gradually abolished.
They also opposed on principle at pleasure secession, except by mutual consent, as in 1788.

[Vaduz]

VDH is brilliant as always.

Indeed every problem he talks about the media won’t the worse thing they fear is the public wising up to the problems.

[DiogenesLamp]

The true version? Or jeffersondem's version?

Well the part he iterated is clearly true, or did you happen to see a mistake in there somewhere that I missed?

In context they are the same version.

[DiogenesLamp]

If segregation existed by law in the south in the 18th and early 19th centuries then wouldn't that be 'official segregation' as well?

Your question is misleading because it implies there was no segregation in the North. Were we talking about an accurate version of history, or your version?

Still doesn't have anything to do with the founding of the country. It wasn't a primary issue in anything going on at the time.

[DoodleDawg]

Well the part he iterated is clearly true, or did you happen to see a mistake in there somewhere that I missed?

Several.

[DiogenesLamp]

And every one of those Founding Southerners opposed slavery as a moral principle and wanted to see it gradually abolished.

Well Jefferson certainly opposed it in principle, but certainly did not oppose it in practice. Washington was similarly situated.

They also opposed on principle at pleasure secession, except by mutual consent, as in 1788.

Except for that pesky "Declaration of Independence" where they clearly say people can leave for any reason they d@mn well please.

Also, the Articles of Confederation required Unanimous consent, and Rhode Island never gave consent, but they just ignored that law.

The convention was illegal under their existing governing charter.

[DoodleDawg]

Your question is misleading because it implies there was no segregation in the North.

And yet you have no problems implying that segregation existed only in the north, at least until after the rebellion.

Were we talking about an accurate version of history, or your version?

Historical accuracy is not your strongpoint. Or jeffersondem's either.

Still doesn't have anything to do with the founding of the country. It wasn't a primary issue in anything going on at the time.

But it was a claim that jeffersondem made. Please try and keep up.

[DiogenesLamp]

Several.

Well you can assert such, but can you point them out?

[BroJoeK]

central_va: "In August 1861, Douglass published an account of the First Battle of Bull Run, which noted that there were blacks in the Confederate ranks."

Early in the war there were black Confederate regiments formed in New Orleans and, iirc, Arkansas.
There may also have been freed-blacks serving in some white Confederate units, though no official records confirm this.

But they did not last long -- black Confederate units were soon shut down and the question of enlisting slaves was officially rejected until the war's very end.

What certainly did happen was at least tens of thousands, likely hundreds of thousands, of slaves served Confederate armies in nearly every capacity except actual combat.
Whether some of these carried rifles & ammunition, or were forced to man artillery pieces, for their "masters", is sometimes alleged, but was never officially acknowledged or condoned by Confederate authorities.

As one Georgia newspaper opined, in January 1865:

"Such an act on our part would be a stigma on the imperishable pages of history, of which all future generations of Southrons would be ashamed.
These are some of the additional considerations which have suggested themselves to us.
Let us put the negro to work, but not to fight.

— Atlanta Southern Confederacy, (January 20, 1865), Macon, Georgia.[100]"

Leading Confederates shared that opinion:

"Prominent Confederates such as R. M. T. Hunter and Georgian Democrat Howell Cobb opposed arming slaves, saying that it was "suicidal" and would run contrary to the Confederacy's ideology.
Opposing such a move, Cobb stated that African Americans were untrustworthy and innately lacked the qualities to make good soldiers, and that using them would cause many Confederates to quit the army.
Cobb said using blacks as soldiers would be the end of the revolution, because "if slaves make good soldiers, our whole theory of slavery is wrong."[101][102][103]"

"An 1862 illustration of a Confederate officer forcing slaves at gunpoint to fire a cannon at U.S. soldiers in battle.
A similar instance occurred at the first Battle of Bull Run, where slaves were forced by the Confederates to load and fire a cannon at U.S. forces.[91][92]"

[wardaddy]

You’re way too vested in the GOPe which is your first mistake ....and tell

[DiogenesLamp]

And yet you have no problems implying that segregation existed only in the north, at least until after the rebellion.

Was there anyone who needed to be convinced that it existed in the South? Had I regarded that as a serious problem, I would have mentioned that it also existed in the South, but I believed most people would see that as a given.

Historical accuracy is not your strongpoint. Or jeffersondem's either.

You assert.

But it was a claim that jeffersondem made. Please try and keep up.

To the other members of the committee who told him to "just stop it", so it had no significant impact on the events of the time.

[DiogenesLamp]

"An 1862 illustration of a Confederate officer forcing slaves at gunpoint to fire a cannon at U.S. soldiers in battle. A similar instance occurred at the first Battle of Bull Run, where slaves were forced by the Confederates to load and fire a cannon at U.S. forces.[91][92]"

Could be true, but how do you know they were "forced" apart from slaves having to do whatever they were told?

Was there very many Union observers on the Southern side that testified they were forced to fire the cannon, or is this just assertions made from the Union side to be used for propaganda?

Lot of deliberate lying going on in that war. Still going on up until today.

[DoodleDawg]

Was there anyone who needed to be convinced that it existed in the South?

In his reply 9, jeffersondem said, "Racial “segregation” in the South was invented after Lincoln's War, not before." So apparently there is at least one person.

To the other members of the committee who told him to "just stop it", so it had no significant impact on the events of the time.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[just Grace]

I did 3 tours of duty in the San Francisco area, one 1976-8, one 1984-1988, and one in 1989-1991. It got demonstrably worse each time. Can’t imagine what it must be like to live in San Francisco now.

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It’s now so bad in San Francisco... my beautiful, white, mid 20’s daughter moved from there to Oakland! 😫 OAKLAND!