Posted on 11/28/2001 7:45:29 AM PST by patent
Actually there were a number of people who opposed using the V-2 rockets or even allowing the rocket team (von Braun, et. al.), into the country. The eventual decision was that the Vengeance weapons were no different in moral principle from other forms of the bombardment of civilian targets. There has not been much controversy when it comes to suppressing the results of Mengele's work -- hardly anyone opposes the surpression.
Actually there were a number of people who opposed using the V-2 rockets or even allowing the rocket team (von Braun, et. al.), into the country. The eventual decision was that the Vengeance weapons were no different in moral principle from other forms of the bombardment of civilian targets. There has not been much controversy when it comes to suppressing the results of Mengele's work -- hardly anyone opposes the surpression.
And if the practice of destroying embryos were ended, the same could be said about IVF.
Some people are infertile and always will be. You can't always get what you want.
The problem is when you can get what you want, but busybodies step in to prevent you from getting it.
It is not an end run around the natural functioning of the body. IVF is.
No, IVF is an end run around the disfunctioning of the body.
Are you denying that cloning technology is sitting on top of the shoulders of the entire IVF, articifical reproductive technology industry?
Of course not. It's just that I don't start from the premise that that industry is inherently evil.
Folks will lose a child in an accident and then "clone" him to try to make a new "Timmy."
That's their prerogative. People often have children to "replace" lost siblings even today. It's pathetic, but hardly a disaster.
A Woody Allen type will clone his wife and then dump her when his daughter/wife starts to remind him more of the girl he fell in love with.
Under any scenario, cloned humans would have the same legal status as any other human being. It's up to the clone whether she wants to date the old fart when she's of age. If for some reason cloned humans do end up being chattel slaves, that's a political problem with a political solution, and in no way a technological problem.
People will abort their accidental "natural" babies in order to order the latest genetically pure baby from Sears.
Like Gattica, "naturally" conceived people will be relegated to second class status, as they will be deemed too short lived to be worth the bother of educating.
These last two suggest to me that you aren't really sure of what clones are.
I can deny this part. Cloning technology is how all the diagnostic tests for blood screening in the world have been manufactured for over 20 years. Almost all diagnostic testing in medicine is dependent on cloning technology for its manufacture. It turns out that once you start cloning mice or rabbits, someone wants to try it on people.
To the rest of the argument I think its a matter of degree. The process that occurs when a person takes an antibiotic has nothing to with how the immune system functions. The make-up of the organisms in the body after taking antibiotics shifts away from benign bacteria to more virulent species. A significant percentage of the 100,000 or so people who die in hospitals every year are killed in this manner. I think vaccines are more along the line of what you were thinking.
As in the Godwin who was the father of Mary Shelley, the actual creator of "Frankenstein's Monster". How appropriate.
And if the practice of destroying embryos were ended, the same could be said about IVF.
You have a point. Unfortunately, as it is practiced today the two are intertwined. I am much less inclined to rally against such things if I don't believe that innocent life is being wasted.
If a pure IVF could be done withouth surplus embryos or abortion then I would consider it more like adultery than murder. And we all know it is futile to try to imprison adulterers.
Some people are infertile and always will be. You can't always get what you want.
The problem is when you can get what you want, but busybodies step in to prevent you from getting it.
As I stated just above, if the destruction of embryos were not involved I would be more open to the idea. As it is I am not calling for a ban on IVF. Cloning may require some more study before we sanction or not it.
People will abort their accidental "natural" babies in order to order the latest genetically pure baby from Sears.
Like Gattica, "naturally" conceived people will be relegated to second class status, as they will be deemed too short lived to be worth the bother of educating.
These last two suggest to me that you aren't really sure of what clones are.
You are correct that these two are not representative of "cloning," per se. They are however nightmare scenarios of the future of genetic engineering. Once we know how to artificially create embryos, we have the opportunity to replace the genetic material with that of another. This si cloning. Once we have this skill done pat, you can be assured that tampering with the genetic code to get the desired results will follow.
First it will be to get rid of birth defects, or future heart trouble, or something like that. Then alcoholism and obesity and such. Then for the right eyes, hair color, chin, or IQ.
SD
First it will be to get rid of birth defects, or future heart trouble, or something like that. Then alcoholism and obesity and such. Then for the right eyes, hair color, chin, or IQ.
That's a separate topic, but an interesting one. Read this thread if you want my views on that topic.
unfortunately, we haven't figure out how to ban the cloning of bigoted morons on FR...If you are going to call a man a nasty name you could at least have the nerve to say it to him.
patent +AMDG
When you state in post 14 that the Cardinal is "disengenuous" and that you don't believe that he believes what he is saying, I'm afraid I'm lost as to the reasoning behind this opinion.
All Catholic clergy spend every waking minute trying to stem the tide of merciless and brutal murder of the unborn. I find all of his comments regarding the abomination of cloning and the end result that is murder to be entirely within the context of his beliefs.
This is slightly off topic so please indulge me for a moment. The Godwin Law and usenet terms as "troll", the meaning of which I am now learning after some years in the biz, and learning reluctantly I might add, since I prefer to remain not an insider, such terms and traditions seem to reflect the strict, inflexible mindsets of engineers and scientifically minded users who have dominated Usenet. (You have seen those, haven't you? I've seen these mindsets in the software engineers I've worked with, and who are we kidding, in myself as well. Professional hazards, you might say.) Paradoxically though, they (the terms and traditions) apply to behaviour patterns which have traditionally been best described by humanistic disciplines, psychology, sociology, literature.
And now I see these terms and insults being applied in that strict engineering manner with no room for any disagreement or negotiation. Which leads me to say Physicist, that in this particular discussion the references to Nazism fit like a glove and are being supported by specific historical references.
The priest I was referring to was Father Antoni Ilin, who was quoted first in the original article, not the Cardinal. The quote I specifically mentioned,
"From the moment of conception, the embryo is invested with human dignity and blessed with the gift of life,"
illustrates what I mean. If he thought that a clone was invested with the same human dignity as any other embryo, he wouldn't have singled it out of the many millions of others. Had the baby been brought to term, I'm sure he would have objected even more strongly.
Just as the use of adult stem cells has shown success rendering the need to "grow" humans for that purpose unnecessary, there are many sources of tissue, organs, "replacement parts" if you will, from selfless people who agree to be donors upon their deaths.
I think we should campaign to have more people volunteer to be donors rather than create more human beings to be used for that express reason.
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