INS confirms border incident with Mexico

The Denver Post ^ | Wednesday, May 22, 2002 | Bill McAllister

[TomGuy]

. What is up with that? Leaving to avoid a confrontation?!

Another report said the agent was unarmed. Remember, they wouldn't allow the National Guardsmen assigned to border patrol to be armed--the "agents" would protect them [the guardsmen].

[kaktuskid]

The gov of Arizona is a woman.

[BlackbirdSST]

I believe you meant to say Abrahms tank. The WWII Sherman couln't hit 75 miles an hour if you dropped it out of an aircraft.

ROFL!!!!! Help I've fallen and can't get up! Blackbird.

[BlackbirdSST]

probably figured he was already outgunned. Pathetic, but you're probably right. Blackbird.

[archy]

The Gov. of Arizona has at his disposal, the Arizona National Guard. The National Guard has at it's disposal, at least ONE Sherman Tank. How about the next time an incursion is detected, a single tank is used to meet the Mexicans. Then if they want to fire on the tank, the tank can fire back. As Shermans can fire with pin point accuracy, while moving over rough terrain at up to 75 mph; I think this would send a clear message to the Mexicans who are illegally on our soil, and commiting an act of war.

Having been a crewman and driver on several different versions of Shermans I can assure you that top vehicle speed of an M4A1 or M4A3 is nowhere near 75mph; 35mph is much more like it, maybe, maybe 40mph down a very steep grade, with a tailwind.

And though the later WWI versions of the M4A1E8 and M4A3E8 [as used dring the Korean war as well] were fitted with a gyrostabilized 76mm main gun, not only is a first-round hit much less likely than a 50-50 proposition, and thereby the reason gunners are trained in *burst on target* fire correction techniques for followup repeat shots, it would be a sinful waste to pump off a main gun HEAT or Hypershot round at an unarmoured vehicle such as a Mexican Army HUMMVW playing drug mule; even the waste of a white phosphourous, cannister or superquick-fuzed High explosive round would be the mark of a rookie, rather than a proper hosing of the soft-skinned target with 30-round bursts from the co-axial machinegun mounted in line with the tank's cannon. In the case of the Shermans, that would be a M1919A4 .30 caliber Browning, firing the military loading of the .30-06 cartridge. We were taught that 12 hits from the co-ax would effectively eliminate the usefulness of any truck so hit- I'd reckon about 3 bursts [90 rounds total] should cover it out to ranges of 1100 meters, [the range at which the tracer rounds burn out] whether either vehicle was moving or not.

[archy]

I believe you meant to say Abrahms tank. The WWII Sherman couln't hit 75 miles an hour if you dropped it out of an aircraft.

It'd do a little better than that. At 32 feet per second per second, after 6 seconds it's falling at over 170 feet per second, which is approximately 120 mph. Less wind resistance, of course, and a Sherman can hardly be considered streamlined. But that's not much of a factor.

You know that the Russians have been known to airdrop their BMD paratroop fighting vehicles with a well-padded driver and gunner inside? Real brave fellas, them Russkies!

-archy-/-

[Boxsford]

discostu, care to comment on this?

[archy]

Pulling back to call in for assistance, maybe? He already knew it was Mexican military, probably figured he was already outgunned.

If he was armed with the usual Border Patrol M96D .40 Beretta handgun, he was probably right. Most BP agents who can are now also carrying cutdown Remington 870 shotguns in case their handgun quits on them. But in any event, up against multiple opponents with rifles, a little time spent with him in basic fire-and-maneuver would have qualified those Mexican troopers for that $10,000 reward for killing a BP officer.

M96D warning bulletins *here* and *here*

[ScreamingFist]

"At 32 feet per second per second, after 6 seconds it's falling at over 170 feet per second, which is approximately 120 mph."

LOL! I bow to your obviously superior knowledge of the freefall velocity of the Sherman tank. Nice pic too!

[jpsb]

v=1/2aT^2

v = 16 x 36 (t=6)

v = 576 ft/sec

v = 393 mi/hour

[archy]

A MUCH more elegant and precise solution than the one I figured in my head. But I can do mine wearing my T10 waiting for the stand-up order and equipment check from the jumpmaster. I think my seat-of-the pants numbers were close enough for my purposes, but yours are clearly better.

-archy-/-

[Havoc]

After the close the borders end the insane WOD and free up manpower to track terrorists instead of POT smokers

Last time I looked, Pot smoking was still against the law and of right should be. We can do both - secure our borders and uphold our laws.

[RightWhale]

A Sherman tank at 75 mph would be like flying a VW Bug with a JATO bottle. If the brakes locked up on one side it would go around in tiny circles at 75 mph, but accuracy of fire wouldn't be affected.

[archy]

There's clearly better math in post #30, above. But here's a couple more M4A1 pics for you, from Uganda, when Idi Amin decided to leave that country suddenly. The old things just keep soldiering on....

[PatrioticAmerican]

I wouldn't say "war", but a good butt-kicking would be in order.

[archy]

A Sherman tank at 75 mph would be like flying a VW Bug with a JATO bottle. If the brakes locked up on one side it would go around in tiny circles at 75 mph, but accuracy of fire wouldn't be affected.

The Sherman's final transmission isn't arranged as a cross- drive. Lock up a track at speeds above 25-30MPH and the track will indeed stop- and the 35 tonne tank wil keep right on going. It takes about two hours to put the track back on, if you remembered to throw the trackjacks in the OEM bag.

But oh yeah, I hate to even consider travelling cross-country in an M4 at 75mph. The HVSS suspension is barely adequate at half that speed with the wide tracks, the VVSS setup is even worse.

See the pics of the ex-Egyptian [via Israel] M4A1s above to consider the narrow/ limited travel VVSS suspension arrangement. The one below has the late WWII/ Korean era HVSS rebuilt improved HVSS.

-archy-/-

[archy]

I wouldn't say "war", but a good butt-kicking would be in order.

Something along the lines of Pershing's 1916 *Punitive Expedition* into Mexico following Pancho Villa's raid on Columbus, NM on 09 March of that year? I seem to recall that National Guard horse cavalry troops from Arizona and Indiana were involved in that action, as well as regular Army troops...and a young Army Cavalry officer named George Patton.

Hmmm, *Punitive Action,* yes....

[SerpentDove]

Have you heard Vincente Fox speak? He seems to have no respect for the United States or its borders. I KNOW he has no respect for U.S. Borders, because he has plainly said so.

The lat time I heard him speak (I think it was on Hannity????) one word kept coming to mind:

T-Y-R-A-N-T.

[HiJinx]

A cop with a pistol doesn't have a chance against soldiers with M-16s. They don't bestow the Congressional Medal of Honor on stupid INS agents, so in this case, discretion is the better part of valor.

Next.

[HiJinx]

The Ground Surveillance Radar soldiers at Ft. Huachuca conducted operations in the Yuma sector 10 years ago. Their job was to set up in tactically appropriate positions and watch (electronically) for walkers coming across the border, then report their presence to the Border Patrol for collection. Once the illegals came across the soldiers, they'd just sit down and wait for the BP to come pick 'em up.

Crazy.