How Russian Special Forces Ended the Seige in Moscow

BBC News ^ | Oct. 26, 2002 | BBC News

[FairOpinion]

gorebegone: ""The Chechen rebels,.."
should read, " The islamist terrorist homicide bombers from chechen..."
-------

Reuters still won't refer to even Al Qaeda terrorists, as terrorists -- only as "militants", "rebels" and so on. It makes me ill. I think the US media should have boycotted Reuters over this -- it's an affront to the 3000 dead Americans and all the rest of us.

[Bigg Red]

What do you make of the bottle of cognac being set near the dead Islamofascist leader? Is that some sort of symbol?

[Bigg Red]

What do you make of the bottle of cognac being set near the dead Islamofascist leader? Is that some sort of symbol?

[NotJustAnotherPrettyFace]

Is Alan really this dense?

Seems he really is. He seems so sincere in his ignorance and/or stupidity.

[Restorer]

Are you Chechen or a liberal supporter?

Those are the only three options, eh?

Chechen, liberal supporter, or blind to the long, bloody, devious history of the KGB, and for that matter their czarist secret police predecessors?

Alex, I'll take "None of the Above" for $1000.

[VaBthang4]

"Still sounds like a clusterf*** to me."

Yep.

[pepsionice]

Any idiot who thinks of the Chechyians as freedom fighters...is way off. These idiots are Taliban-minded folks who would destroy their entire country if possible. They don't just want Chechynian region for the locals....they want it pure Islam. Anybody who has lived there for 50 years and is not Muslim...would simply have to leave. And that really explains their entire problem. The Russians have taken the absolutele correct steps and have eliminated 1000s of the terrorists and will continue to do so until this mess ends.

[Destro]

...or Islam's long tradition of terrorisim?

which is worse?

I will side with people who sign with the cross, anyday.

[Destro]

You know I was thinking, from Waco, to the Iranian fiasco to Somalia the USA has had no history of a successful mass hostage rescue against organized terrorists.

Something al-Qaeda must be pondering.

This was an exceptional rescue done is a unique way by the Russians.

Iran and Waco, now those were true cluster f**ks.

[Lizard_King]

I disagree. I think by and large the KGB's methods were predicated on close observation, followed by silent and swift action (as opposed to our CIA's let's-let-the-damn-thing-blow-up-in-our-face approach). I don't really see a great deal of evidence to connect Chechen terrorist actions to KGB conspirators, nor any real motivation to do so. If you have some of this evidence on hand, I would be happy to look at it. Otherwise, it is about as credible as zionist conspiracies in 9/11.

What's more, I don't really see a logical extension of czarist actions, which were quite tame, in the many
variations of 20th century KGB.

The KGB is just a tool, not the puppetmaster. And the puppetmaster ain't half bad these days.

I agree with Pepsionice that two view the Chechnyan rebels in a benevolent light simply because of the flaws of the Russians is foolish; let us not make the same mistake of viewing the world through a Wilsonian lense and seeing self determination as an inherently good thing.


It comes down to this: If you are fighting a "jihad", no matter where it is, you are the enemy. The KGB is not our enemy any longer.

[VaBthang4]

I dont quite comprehend the motivation behind comparing this to military fiascos that have occured under Liberal Presidents.

It is almost like comparing wars. Let it go people.

Anyway...

You said..."This was an exceptional rescue done is a unique way by the Russians".

"Exceptional" yes..."unique" yes...a success from a western Special forces community standpoint....Nope.

[Destro]

a success from a western Special forces community standpoint

My point exactly! Beyond Peru's Japanese embassy rescue and the many Irsaeli examples I can think of no other successful mass hostage rescue against an organized group (I am not talking about local police dealing with small domestic hostage taking examples). If Peru and Isreal are part of your idea of "western Special forces community".

Can you name me one example that American special forces forces rescued hostages successfuly? (not as a challenge-just would like to know for my own education on the subject).

[VaBthang4]

"Beyond Peru's Japanese embassy rescue and the many Irsaeli examples I can think of no other successful mass hostage rescue against an organized group"

I can think of no other mass hostage taking in someones own capitol by an organized group.

;o)

"Can you name me one example that American special forces forces rescued hostages successfuly?"

I'll answer your loaded question if you'll answer mine...

Can you name one example where American Special Forces were required to rescue hostages in Washington DC?

[Destro]

Your going around in circles. You can't call something a cluster f**k of a rescue unless you have something to compare it too.

[VaBthang4]

I am not going in circles...you just dont know what you're talking about.

You have something to compare it to...

The Peruvians taking back the Japanese embassy. A building located in the Nation's capitol taken over by terrorists.

Also...the [Iranian I think] embassy in London.

Those are the only two situations you can put on the table when comparing. You can deliniate on timelines and so on and so forth...

...but if you want to compare...those are your only examples.

Location, logistical support possible, as well as an ability to control the surrounding area, water, electricity and media.

[Destro]

The problem is yours. You said this was a cluster f**k of an operation compared to western standards. Such a statement implies a comparison is made with past successes. I don't think the taking of hostages in a capital city matters much.

Anyway, all I pointed out was that their is NO HISTORY of a successful American rescue of mass hostages, anywhere in any scenario. I guess you can make a claim that Granada was a rescue operation. But domestically (as in Attica or Waco) or internationally (as in the Iran fiasco) we have a poor record of mass hostage rescue.

The Israelis and Peruvians do have a track record but I don't consider them exemplars of the Western model, because Israel and Peru are unique.

[VaBthang4]

Nice try at interjecting the Jimmy Carter fiasco as something remotely related to this subject. Yawn.

It was a Charlie Foxtrot. Piss poor tactics and scheme of maneuver. You dont have to agree...big deal...doesnt change reality.

Whether US Forces have killed 130+ people in a hostage rescue [like the Russians just did] or not doesnt affect how bAd the Russian just performed.

Like I said...

You have two examples to use [Neither of which involves Israelis. I dont know where you keep getting them from]. Anything else is outsider vanity and excuse making.

[Destro]

According to you, compared to the Brits and Peruvians the Russians performed poorly. Based on past American performance the Russians were exceptional?

[VaBthang4]

Yes Destro...this slaughter of 130+ hostages by the Russians was a shining example of Spetznaz superiority over their better trained, funded and supported American Brethren.

</ smirk>

Go away now.

[Destro]

It was? Ok can you show me an example for my own eduction/future refrence?