Marine Corps' "Widow-Maker": Harrier Attack Jet (LA Times hit piece)

Yahoo Press Release (LA Times) ^ | Dec. 13, 2002

[cynicom]

That turkey will never fly.

[Timocrat]

That technique is called VIFFing; Vectoring In Forward Flight. If I recall correctly, all the movable exhaust nozzles, four on the Harrier II, are linked, so if one is moved they all move.

You could well be right. My recollection is from the time of the Falklands. What I do remember is that the loss of air speed makes it a dangerous manoeuvre but if you have a missile or faster jet approaching it can be a life saver.

[PAR35]

Lockheed tried unsucessfully to build a vertical take off fighter during the 60s. They lost some fine test pilots in the effort. The Brits managed to get the job done.

[Dead Dog]

That is simply not true, there are plenty American airplanes that don't look like they want to fly.

here's a short list

I appologize to all of you piper drivers, but this looks like it should be being peddled in circles on the back patio by a 3 year old.

Any PA-22/20 STCs makes this a fine airplane, but MY GOD! The nose wheel makes it look like crap, and at least 10mph slower when it didn't have 10mph to lose. Folks this was considered progress in 1955.

PPPFFT, yah it flys, but it doesn't want to. Half don't even have rudder peddles. This would be like fat chicks and mopeds, if it was fun to ride.

The V-22 may be ugly, but that just means it needs more power to go fast.

[WhiskeyPapa]

From an earlier thread:

"My main opposition to the Osprey is because it cannot autorotate. Despite all the invitations to its supporters to state how it can safely land power-off, they just resort to attacking me or slinking off.

I was a two-tour Army pilot in Vietnam with combat experience in both rotary and fixed wing aircraft, and I've kept my hand in aviation since then (mostly in aircraft design).

39 posted on 03/09/2002 6:31 PM EST by Bobsat

Walt

[WhiskeyPapa]

I suspect that your friend was relaying some story from a friend that heard from a friend, that heard about something, sometime. . .and it is always something bad about a) a pilot, and b) an officer (the more senior, the better).

Maybe. Thanks for the input.

Walt

[Gunrunner2]

Cobra's can fly up to 170kts.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ah-1.htm

[freedumb2003]

"Balloons on tethers should be the only way man should leap from this earth, and then not to(o) high..."

A'la the lawnchair man?

[hchutch]

The Cobra goes 170.

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ah-1.htm

[WhiskeyPapa]

Cobra's can fly up to 170kts.

Thanks. So the fact that the MV-22 can fly 300 knots is useless if you want them to be escorted by Cobras.

Would you agree with that?

Walt

[Dead Dog]

Why would they need a Cobra Escort? Why couldn't they be escorted by a fixed wing?

[hchutch]

Plus, you can always send the Cobras and/or other attack helicopters ahead to take out defenses so they can arrive on station at the same time.

[onedoug]

[blackdog]

This Piper owner accepts your apology. However distorted your visual receptors may be. I love my Cherokee. Like most things you really love, it's her ability to perform and how much she costs!

My Cherokee outperforms a Mooney, a 172, and that silly Beach Sundowner. It handles like a real airplane. I cruise @122kts, manage a 610fpm climb at well over gross. Of course like all cherokees, I love to fall like a rock when I want to. Gliding is for pussies.

The plane I would really love to own is a Maule. That and a Mitsubishi Solitare, that is a piece of fast ass at a good price.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

The same way you did when you blamed the pilots and not the aircraft?

Your Achilles' heel of poor comprehension bites you in your backside again. Read the following very, very s-l-o-w-l-y:

"Photos of the Marine pilots killed in the Harrier

Wonder if they'll point out those who were responsible for their own deaths."

That's not generalizing and it's not blaming the pilot instead of the aircraft. I want the Times to note those pilots who were responsible for their own deaths and distinguish them from those who died as a result of mechanical error or were shot down and killed in the Gulf War. A generalization would be "All of those pilots killed themselves." Some pilots panic, some pilots freeze at the controls, some pilots ride it in in a vain attempt to save either the bird or personnel on the ground, some pilots make basic airmanship mistakes, some pilots lose spatial orientation, some pilots suffer g-induced loss of consciousness, some pilots make poor decisions. The guy who flew into H&MS-32s' hangar and ejected into the roof may have been guilty of all of these. Will the Times point this out?

Once again, give us specifics on what problems there are with the technology that you alone are obviously privy to. A straight answer would be nice. Also, detail how many times the budget has been cut and by what amount, how many test flight hours have been accumulated since first flight on 19 March 1989, how many times flight testing has been stopped due to budget cuts and for what duration, length of time that flight testing was stopped following accidents, number of flight hours accumulated since flight testing resumed in May of 2002. Tell us all how many times IOC has been changed due to lack of funding.

The AH-1W has a maximum speed of about 170 knots and cruises at about 150. The Osprey flies quite nicely at 150 or 170 knots. It can fly slower and it can fly faster. It has a very wide operating envelope. When the two CH-53's from HMH-461 launched from USS Guam and flew to Mogadishu, 460 miles away, to evacuate the embassy in January of 1991, how many Cobras flew escort? After the Super Stallions and Cobras launched from the Kearsarge to go and rescue O'Grady how much time transpired before the Harriers launched from the same boat to provide escort? If Ospreys had been used how much of a time differential, if any, would there have been?

[pfflier]

The Harrier has failed to make a significant and distinctive contribution on the battlefield.

Try telling that to the British in the Falklands. The Harrier did it all and better that the Argentinians did.

Despite the Harrier's controversial history, the Marines are pushing ahead with a new generation of vertical-lift aircraft, including the V-22 Osprey troop transport whose revolutionary technology also has had deadly side effects.

Entirely different technology, Harrier-turbojet thrust vectoring vs MV-22 - rotor thrust vectoring

But, hey just a few insufficiencies in the facts. That usually doesn't bother the press.

[fightu4it]

It's an impressive thing to see a Harrier hover in midair. Add the vertical take off and landing capabilities and anyone can see why this airplane is a must have for our military.

It would certainly be a new and revolutionary flying experience and by definition require skills in flying not previously required. Deaths, as unfortunate as they are, have always accompanied revolutionary advances in technology.

We should move forward with the program as fast as we can.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

How about finding all the posts where Bobsat is asked to explain how one overcomes the problem of retreating blade stall and doesn't provide an answer. Bobsat is no authority.

[hchutch]

I'll admit that I lean more towards a Russian design, myself:

Pipers and Cessnas just don't do it for me.

[Dead Dog]

I love getting a dig on the Cherokee. I've never met an owner that didn't love there's, but I learned in Cessnas

I'm going to be looking for a project C-180 this fall.

Maule makes a fine product also.

The MU-2s were sweet. They owned both ends of the envelope. What was the statistic, something like 30% were lost in takeoff accidents. Didn't they have blown,slotted-fowlers, and very high CLmax, something between 3 and 4. So they were off and climbing like a rocket while being well below Vmc. A great airplane and probably very safe when flown right.