Marine Corps' "Widow-Maker": Harrier Attack Jet (LA Times hit piece)

Yahoo Press Release (LA Times) ^ | Dec. 13, 2002

[Gunrunner2]

Much like air-brushed pin-ups in Penthouse/Playboy, what you see is NOT what you get. . .trust me. . .a close look, a physical touch and some major flaws become apparent.

[Dead Dog]

Built by slaves for House Slaves. Besides, it ain't any good when you have to buy the gas.

[Gunrunner2]

>>It handles like a real airplane.<<

Real men want real aircraft.

>>I cruise @122kts,<<

I think that is about the max taxi speeed for the F-15E open canopy.
;-)

>>manage a 610fpm climb<<

Wow. . .an ear popping rocket. . .I think I hit that climb rate when climbing up the ladder to the cockpit.

>>Of course like all cherokees,<<

Great slow moving target practice. . .you know, there are two types of aircraft, fighters and targets.

>>I love to fall like a rock when I want to.<<

Me too, nothing like a mach + dive, at night, in the vertical notch to get your hair on fire. . .but then again, accelerating straight up with all five after-burner stages spitting flame also has its thrills.

>>Gliding is for pussies.<<

Got that right. . .

Cheers bubbas.
:-o

[A Navy Vet]

If you notice, there is no one around on the flight deck. The Air Boss would order all flight deck types into the superstructure when conducting Harrier ops because they were so flaky...at least in the '70's.
Inexperienced pilots would bob and weave all over the deck.

[hchutch]

Yeah, but can an F-15 do a "cobra" maneuver?

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

So the fact that the MV-22 can fly 300 knots is useless if you want them to be escorted by Cobras.

Can Harriers, Hornets and JSFs escort Ospreys? Can Cobras refuel while airborne?

[blackdog]

As in most gutsy high performance twins, Vmc takes it's toll on pilots who pay little attention to details. Other than the AD's on those props on the MU-2, that plane is sweet. Just don't make a hard left when exiting the door, and have some real sympathy for the ramp monkey who agrees to start you with a GPU. There is about a one foot clearance from the hook-up to the prop zone. I think the Baron is the best Vmc killer. Big doctor/lawyer appeal, 300hp per side, it'll get you if not careful.

I on the other hand learned twins in Aztecs. D and F model. There was no illusion of speed in those trucks. An engine out at gross was pretty funny. You got cramps in your leg holding rudder. No way that lunk was going to suddenly roll, stall, or do much of anything other than fly like a roaring pile of mashed potatoes.

[Gunrunner2]

Two years ago I was on HMS Invincible. They were conducting Harrier ops and everything appeared normal, people running around the deck, guys like me observing, no big deal. In fact, we were bobbing because of the awful choppy seas just off the northeast coast of Ireland, and the Harriers were steady as a rock and smoothly landed and took off.

Great pilots.

[Dead Dog]

I'm envious, however, what do you fly now?

[hchutch]

What is Vmc?

[Dead Dog]

Isn't the "Cobra" maneuver used to make sure the second missle "get's some"?

[Lee'sGhost]

I did a story on this back in the mid '80s with the jet jockies down at Cherry Point. The Marines I inteviewed seemed to love the damn thing. One of the things they pointed out is that the Harrier could run three or four sorties to every one carried out by a convential jet and you need to factor that into the death rate. Another thing was that the Brits had a much lover death rate, probably because they were helicopter pilots turned Harrier pilots. Had a better feel for up and down flying. All of that was before the newer, more stable version came out -- and wonder if these articles make any distinction.

[Gunrunner2]

Why would I want to?

The "cobra maneuver" is a sure way to get yourself killed. Zero foreward speed in an aerial fight is something we avoid ("speed is life"). Speed keeps you alive,as the kinetic energy allows you to maneuver and stay at corner velocity, and it also gives your weapons greater range.

Zero airspeed does not affect our radars, like it would have back in the early F-4 days.

The "value" of the cobra maneuver was in this: when they perfomed that maneuver we discovered they had solved the problem of high AOA/slow airspeed compressor stalls (we had solved that problem years ago). We discovered their engine technology was better, but please note, they still smoke like my grand-dad's pipe and have a long spin-up to full power. Not good for staying alive.

Zero airspeed makes you a strafe rag (easy target). Makes a great air show visual, but tactically speaking, it is pathetic and silly.

[blackdog]

I just have a hard time convincing my wife that the purchase of any airplane that costs a few million used is a decent investment. I did take her for a ride in a lear 25 without the hush kit and it did impress her. Not enough to buy one though.

Married, with children, with airplane is a real rarity. I for one am thankful for it at all.

I have to admit a real jealousy toward those who get to fly taxpayer owned toys. Do me a favor and fly it like you mean it!

[A Navy Vet]

Maybe we got the guys in early training. We were also a helo carrier (LPH-11) with less room for error.

[hchutch]

But Pipers and Cessnas are so... slow.

I've got a need for speed.

[pfflier]

such as swivelling one of the vents so the aircraft could turn on a dime.

Well, kinda...The maneuver is called "vertical in flight vectoring" or "VIFFING" which allows the aircraft to immediately translate from its flight axis (usually up or down). It is unique and hard to counter during air combat maneuvering. It can also be like hitting the brakes. Literally an in-flight stop.

AV-8's have acquited themselves well in air to air combat simulations at interservice combat training.

This LA Times piece is an old rehash from a 60 minutes hatchet job done many years ago.

Also ignored (typically), is the advent of fly-by-wire system which stabilizes the aircraft independently of the pilot's inputs. An F-15 flew home and landed safely in the '70's missing a wing because the computers balanced the aircraft's assymetrical wing load. BTW The computer may have stabilized the craft but the pilot elected to stick with it when he had every right to "punch out". That is how we develop new and better technology, by learning, not quitting.

[Gunrunner2]

Sadly, I fly an SUV up/down I-95 and around the Beltway, chasing Foreign Military Sales contracts here in the Wash DC area. . .but I will always have my memories, pictures, and friends. I have thought about checking out at the local muni, but just can't make myself go there--yet.

(Incidentially, I started flying when I was 17, got my license at 17 and was in the Civil Air Patrol. They are the reason I joined the Air Force. . .I owe them alot.)

[Gunrunner2]

Hah!

[WhiskeyPapa]

Why would they need a Cobra Escort? Why couldn't they be escorted by a fixed wing?

They could be, of course. But the Cobras are the best escorts.

Fast movers go, well, fast. If supression is needed, Cobras are best suited for that.

All the criticisms you see from me are but what I remember Marine pilots saying 10-15 years ago in the pages of the Marine Corps Gazette.

One of my peeves with the MV-22 is that it costs $90 million a copy, and goes really fast -- an attribute it never needed.

Walt