Hail of Gunfire and Grenades Forces Apaches to Pull Back

nytimes.com ^ | March 24, 2003 | JIM DWYER

[SevenDaysInMay]

It is obvious that the Iraqi military is dressing as civilians, hiding in the midst of civilians, and shooting us as civilians. All-jazz-era then broadcasts injured and dead civilians, while ignoring the tons of arms and munitions cached by said Ba'athist civilians.

Rule 223 in TOW helps our men survive while they preach Hellfire and JDAMnation. I am proud of BBC for showing Marine riflemen with .50 BMG hunting rifles taking out the trash.

Rules of engagement must change or the brass sacrifices as freely as LBJ's Gen. Westmourneland in Nam.

[F16Fighter]

I, OTOH, will continue to post to self-absorbed elitists.

[Citizen of the Savage Nation]

Key point. The media, as expected, is reporting on the tire that went flat, not the 3 that are still working. We have taken 10's of thousands of square miles of their country, faced and engaged tens of thousands of their troops, taken on all the 'assymetric' warfare that they have been able to muster so far, and yet we have only suffered a few dozen KIA's, a hundred or two injured, and a dozen or so captured.

What we're NOT hearing is how many KIA we have incurred on them, and don't forget we have a few thousand POW's to boot. A back of the envelope estimate of Iraqi KIA's would probably be in the thousands at this point. We still have good reason to believe Saddam and his band are out of commission, either dead or wounded, and these 'pockets of resistance' that we keep hearing about mean we're more in control of the situation than they are. Contrast this with the early days of the Afghan campaign, when WE were the pockets of resistance to a largely Taliban held country.

Things aren't going that bad.

[Citizen of the Savage Nation]

Agree, but see my #103 if you need more perspective and think we're starting to lose this war.

We definitely have made some mistakes, the biggest of which is allowing Iraqi TV to remain on the air. The truth is that the country is still more afraid of Saddam than they are of us. Not taking out the TV is going a long way to helping this to be the case. Once we have dealt with the head of the snake, Baghdad, this will no longer be the case and critical mass will be achieved, and the situation will change drastically.

Baghdad is the key, and we need to get in there this week and take control of the situation.

[Destro]

Not even close to being an elitist. I ask questions is all and I trust no source.

[Wavyhill]

My impression is that this was a raid, and that the withdrawal was after they accomplished their goals.

[Wavyhill]

Speculation is not generally considered an argument. Why do you insist on bringing scorn on reasonable libertarians like Virginia Postrel by becoming a caricature of one?

[thisiskubrick]

They'll be congratulating themselves about driving off helicopters ... until the A-10s show up and give them a primer on depleted uranium 30mm ammunition. We can deliver whatever level of force is needed to destroy whatever level of resistence is encountered, and IMO once the Iraqis realize this they will be less prone to directly confront the troops.

Yep, that worked in Vietnam. Just kidding. Seriously though, it doesn't matter what level of force is applied, they can always hide amongst civilians and be "good citizens" until the day they plan bombs etc.

[Wavyhill]

However, they won't because they don't believe in what they're fighting for. They fight out of fear of Saddam, and for profit.

[socal_parrot]

Notice how the Iraqis brag about downing two Apaches whith small arms fire and General Franks denies it. Yet, this reporter leads with the Iraqi viewpoint as if it were irrefutable fact.

[hotpotato]

we would never trade American blood to gain any favor from the Muslim world.

I don't think that is happening. At least, not in such simple terms. You have to look at the big picture. We didn't trade American blood to gain favor of the French in WWII. We did it because we saw that if the Nazi regime were to continue, it would mean a major threat to us in the long run. If Iraqi's believe we are there to liberate them and not destroy them and that our target is Saddam and his cruel regime, a progressive government for the future is more likely. Which... in the end, means more peace for us.

[Euro-American Scum]

Kill 'em all, and let God sort 'em out!

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This thing will be over when the Arabic language is spoken only in hell. This particular campaign may be to oust Saddam Hussein. But let's not kid ourselves. This is a cultural war of annihilation. And it won't be over until one side or the other is completely obliterated.

It's them or us. I vote us.

[TD911]

Oh, you mean like when Schwarzkopf wanted to wipe out the Republican guards and was told to back off. Not too much meddling.

The same BS was being thrown around in Afghanistan. More bombing, bigger bombs, more troops, we need to unleash the hounds.

Sure enough Afghanistan fell that same week.

If you think the White House is picking targets like some LBJ/Strangelove duo, you are sadly mistaken. It's the Donald/Tommy show.

[wku man]

"If you think the White House is picking targets like some LBJ/Strangelove duo, you are sadly mistaken. It's the Donald/Tommy show."

What war are you watching? Maybe Bush isn't picking targets, but he's sure as hell picking what not to target. Furthermore, if this is the "Donald/Tommy Show", who, pray tell, do Donald and Tommy work for?

No dude, this is Bush trying to apply his "new tone" to warfare, and that doesn't work. If we must go to war, then we need to do it as quickly as possible, as violently as possible, and decisively as possible, so when our enemy is defeated, he stays that way, and no one else dares to lift a finger against us (think of Japan after WW2). To do anything else is to needlessly put our troops further in harm's way. If our guys are being shot at, regardless of by whom or where he's hiding, they ned to have the freedom to eliminate the threat without having to first stop and look for items on the forbidden targets list.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

[wku man]

Sorry...forgot to address this point of yours:

"The same BS was being thrown around in Afghanistan. More bombing, bigger bombs, more troops, we need to unleash the hounds. Sure enough Afghanistan fell that same week."

Oh, Afghanistan fell, did it? Is that why the 82d is on a sweep mission right now as we speak, looking for Al-Qaeda and Taliban guerillas and their weapons? Is that why the guerillas, who you say "fell", rocketed one of the 82d's bases last week? No, sir, Afghanistan didn't "fall". The guerillas did as they have done in the past with the Brits and the Soviets...ran away to the mountains and caves to fight the same guerilla war they've always fought. Afghanistan is far from over.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

[Destro]

I am not a libertarian.

[kosciuszko]

"If you don't trust that info then you don't have a firm grasp on who is telling the truth in this."

It's not that I don't trust the US military's figures. I just that I remember the Kosovo war. True, we never had any verification on the ground in Kosovo, and we're fighting from 15,000 feet. But, the fact remains that we were shocked when the Serbs let us through. Virtually their entire army remained intact, and we had thought that more than half had been destroyed. If we would have had to fight our way in, we would have faced much rougher going than anything we're seeing here.

Certainly, the Iraqis aren't as tough or as smart as the Serbs. But, the Iraqis did learn a few lessons from the Serbs in hiding tanks, and might be applying some of them in these cases.

[timestax]

You can go in and bomb that building and reduce it to rubble,'' but at the potential cost of many civilian lives.

TUFF, just DO IT !!

[timestax]

, as violently as possible, and decisively as possible, so when our enemy is defeated, he stays that way, and no one else dares to lift a finger against us

DITTO, man DITTO!, and No half measures!