Save The Apache, Lose The Gold Plating (AH-64D Performance During Gulf War II)

Soldiers For The Truth ^ | April 29, 2003 | David Hackworth

[El Gato]

One Longbow was shot down

Accounts from the crew indicate that the bird was not shot down, rather a 23mm round hit the pilot in the boot, and burned his foot to the point where he could no longer fly and had to set it down ASAP. It may have been shot up, but it wasn't shot down.

[Travis McGee]

That is exactly what the USMC F-18 pilots are saying: they did the CAS job for real. You just didn't see them on TV. (They were not in the viewfinder.)

[Travis McGee]

The problem is targeting, if that "ZHU in the alley" is hidden in someone's shed next to a house, just waiting for you to go past looking for the gun reported a little way off. The ZHU does not reveal itself until it has a point blank shot.

One way we will fix this situation is to saturate the area with small hovering UAVs which will literally look into all the sheds. The UAV will shine a laser on the target, and it will be hit from way far away.

[Travis McGee]

Even worse, dozens of them plus RPGs etc all supporting each other.

This seems to have been the case in Karbala. You are looking at that threat over yonder, and you get zapped by the one you didn't see at all.

[The KG9 Kid]

He's right on the point that the A-10 really does belong in the Marine Corps. The Harrier and F-18 don't fit in a role that the Marines would probably be better off with using antique A-1 Skyraiders for.

Also, more A-10s need to be built. Just after Gulf War I, the Air Force wanted to park them all permanently at Davis-Mothball in Arizona, which proves they don't deserve them. Flying down in the mud just doesn't have that style that the Air Force wants.

Give them to the Marines.

[Stopislamnow]

As a ex-army helo guy, I say Hack's a little right for once.

The longbow is nice, but it is NOT, WAS NOT, ever supposed to be close ground support aircraft.

It's a tank/mech killer. In co-ordination with OH-58D's they are very effective in almost any role, except close air support.

The 58D lazes, the Apache stands off and fires hellfires all day.

On a side note, I was extremely pleased to see the 58D doing runs on some compound this time around in the gulf.

[Stopislamnow]

[Warhead W-88]

Is the "longbow" part of the Apache Longbow that sensor globe atop the rotor?

[Pro-Bush]

[jbstrick]

Hack also freaked out on hannity's show. It was really strange...

[rmlew]

That makes me wonder if a fixed-wing like an A-10 would be all that effective.
The enemy targets are fluid and dug in around civilian structures. You want something that can hover to take it out.

[Light Speed]

Great comments....

In 1971, U.S. helo'd alot of ARVN into Laos..[STUPID STUPID STUPID]...anyhoo..U.S. is just logistics and defence..ARVN are for fight.

Dozens of helo's are going down..and dozens each day are shot to pieces.

Theres a photo with 5 burned hueys on a firebase hill.

guys litterly dove off tops of hills to reach the skids as the pilots could see VC running everywhere.

Even Phantom pilots got downed...stumbling around in the forest with helo pilots.

Charlie knew the opp..knew the route..put the hurt on them for it.

Karbala...cocky....overflew firepower..found themselves in chaos... recieving 360 degree fire.

Just bad ingress..got slapped.

Your right about the success factor in intel and standoff launch..

Israel has used their Cobras and Apaches more like "Hitmen" of late..but they do it from standoff..at edge of weapons aquistion targetting envelop..and via teams..where A focuses kill..B copes the intel/com stream and conveys the breifest info to A so A is not distracted.

B is also eyes for return fire.

The also do not loiter at low values...Palies have access to modern shoulder fired missiles from Europe.

I think the most important decision in regards to a helo..is how you push it into the battlefield...cuz once there....its painted.

[MississippiMan]

Thanks. I'm well familiar with ground effect, but the specs didn't make sense to me. I was having trouble figuring out, for example, how it could be in ground effect at 12,000 feet, or whatever it was. I'll take another look at the specs tomorrow with your explanation in mind.

MM

[RobbyS]

I have watched the A-10s that were based at Sembach in Germany, and it seems to me that they can fly as slow as piper cubs. So it seems they can take dead aim with their guns.

[xm177e2]

Does the Longbow system/the dome on top serve any purpose other than tank-killing? If so, Hack is right (we have much better weapons for getting rid of tanks--namely precision guided munitions). If getting rid of the Longbow 'copters means more 64As, that's even better.

[risk]

...bolts in plastic baggies...

Is anyone listening? I hope so. The stories of jammed rifles in the 507th ought to say something to someone. The sad thing is, fixing this problem could be much more expensive than any one major hi-tech weapons system like the Longbow.

[lentulusgracchus]

If that's your OH-58D, I'd hate to meet one in a dark alley......those don't exactly look like Whitman samplers hanging on his launch rails.

[lentulusgracchus]

It was a Dutch Apache driver on a training flight over East Texas on February 1 who managed to get some spectacular gun-camera footage of the shuttle "Columbia" breaking up in flight. He was at altitude and had arguably better optics than the television and home-video cameras people were using on the ground. His video was shown on Houston television the same day.

[lentulusgracchus]

That makes me wonder if a fixed-wing like an A-10 would be all that effective. The enemy targets are fluid and dug in around civilian structures. You want something that can hover to take it out.

In that kind of terrain where AAA has the advantage (I've read flat statements in military-oriented pubs that helicopters simply cannot operate within effective range of a ZSU 23-4), you want to do it the way the Israelis did it in Lebanon in 1982. You didn't see lots of video of Israeli Hueys buzzing around; what you saw was fast movers dropping stuff from altitude and Israeli tanks and M-107's knocking down the sniper nests seriatim with direct fire. Someone commented that it was the first time anyone had ever used M-107's in a direct-fire role. It certainly seemed to work better than sending a maintenance company to storm them with jammed M-16's.

[lentulusgracchus]

In 1971, U.S. helo'd alot of ARVN into Laos..[STUPID STUPID STUPID]...anyhoo..U.S. is just logistics and defence..ARVN are for fight.

The NVA had set up "golden hose" AAA (anyone know what piece that was? a Gatling-type weapon, maybe?) on literally every hilltop, with interlocking fields of fire; they were actually shooting down at the U.S. helos as they went by. We lost several dozen veteran helicopter pilots in that SNAFU. Operational security failure: GVN was rotten with VC spies, the op was totally compromised from the git.

Not that we were exempt from security compromises: I've never heard the name of whoever it was who tipped the North Vietnamese about the Son Tay raid. The ARVN's were completely cut out of that for security reasons, to no avail.