Save The Apache, Lose The Gold Plating (AH-64D Performance During Gulf War II)

Soldiers For The Truth ^ | April 29, 2003 | David Hackworth

[Stopislamnow]

The thing on top of the apache's rotor is its longbow radar.

The Mast Mounted Sight on the 58D has lotsa goodies. As well as live battle field video, laser rangerfinder and designator, thermal sights,,,,,among other things!

Hellfire rockets are laser guided.....58D can lase out past 6 clicks with ease and good weather.

[Fury]

Ping FYI

[RaceBannon]

major redesign needed to make an A-10 a USMC a/c

need arresting gear for the carrier for one

Personnaly, I think theyneed to work n a laser designated mortar shell, and make a Humvee into a large bore mortar carrier, have UAV's do the lasing

[snippy_about_it]

ping

[demlosers]

Is this a accurate portrayal of the Apache?

No.

[CasearianDaoist]

Cobras are designed for close air support of infantry. Apaches are intended as "manuever elements" working with armor. It is an apple and orange comparison. This seems like a tempest in a teapot to me.

[MalcolmS]

Thanks. I'm well familiar with ground effect, but the specs didn't make sense to me. I was having trouble figuring out, for example, how it could be in ground effect at 12,000 feet, or whatever it was. I'll take another look at the specs tomorrow with your explanation in mind.

The chopper is trying to take off from a mountain meadow at 12,000 ft.

[Poohbah]

My understanding is that Cobra's and Huey's are still high altitude champs. If you want to fight or do rescues in high mountains, you send Hueys and Cobras, even in 2003.

No, you need to do high-altitude rescue work, you send in a CH-53E--particularly if it's summertime.

One of the funniest things I ever saw was at Yuma--a Huey was trying to get off of the ground in August (it was about 110 degrees). They never even got to "light on the skids."

[Poohbah]

I've never heard the name of whoever it was who tipped the North Vietnamese about the Son Tay raid.

Son Tay was a fiasco because of the US cloud-seeding program--the river had flooded, requiring the prisoners to be evacuated.

As for Lam Son 719--that wasn't so much the fault of Marvin the ARVN as it was the fault of Chief Petty Officer John Walker, United States Navy.

[judicial meanz]

Thats close to what I heard, but add in 23mm AA guns to the mix.

ZSU, small arms, and 23mm AA guns can make anyones day miserable in an attack helicopter.


I personally believe the problem lies more with strategy and tactics of employment than with the Apache helicopter.

[vannrox]

Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Fix whats wrong or modify to meet new mission requirements. Geeze...

[MindBender26]

In ground effect means hovering over hard ground, where the rotor downwash bouncing off ground give added boost. Out of ground effect is oppsite; hobering in air with no ground under you. so downwash disipates more easilly, so less performance.

Don't worry, this is typical Slackworth BS.

[MindBender26]

Is typical Slackworth "Only I Am The Keeper Of All Truth" BS.

[ladtx]

It's possible to be in ground effect at 12,000 ft if you're hovering on top of a 12,000 mountain.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

Another editorial in breaking news. Sorry but 4 of the top breaking news items are not breaking news. I don't like this. I wan't true news that is very recent when I go to breaking news!

[The Wizard]

My guess is we will learn from the experience and make corrections....that's the American way,....

[SAMWolf]

Thanks for the ping Snippy.

The Apache was never designed to be a close in weapons systems. Its supposed to be able to kill from a distance without being seen. It's main purpose is as a tank killer not a close support aircraft.

[verity]

I support your thesis. The problem rests with the doctrine and not with the bird.

[Gunrunner2]

>>lying down in the mud just doesn't have that style that the Air Force wants. <<

As explained earlier, you fly low when faced with an air-to-air threat, fly high and out of range of every gomer with a gun when you own the sky. That is smart tactics, or "style" if you want to call it that.

Flying CAS is the most challenging mission in a jet, and I've flown CAS, deep strike, air-to-air, etc (former A-10 and F-15E pilot, Gulf War I FAC with 101st). The Air Force did not care much for the A-10 when the Soviets were the threat, beleiving the A-10 had no survivability when facing Soviet IADS. However, with Gulf War I and Gulf War II, they are coming around.

JAAT is a perfect way to maximise the combined firepower of attack helo's and the A-10.

Transferring the A-10 to the Army/Marines is more difficult than most imagine, and this difficulty comes from the problems associated with air coordination (ATO), and logistics and basing (where would a deployed Army base/fly their A-10's?).

[lentulusgracchus]

As for Lam Son 719--that wasn't so much the fault of Marvin the ARVN as it was the fault of Chief Petty Officer John Walker, United States Navy.

What, Walker did that? How soon do we shoot him?