Sarah's Choice (more on the Sarah Saga saga)

WSJ ^ | 6/21/2003 | WJS Opinion Jornal

[Ready4Freddy]

From the NRO site:

jdmowbra@erols.com

[Ready4Freddy]

It's been less than a week, and we've had no reporting except by WND / Roush. Haven't heard a word from State / DOJ / WH directly - does that mean inaction to you?

What pressure do you expect them to apply? What do you think would work?

[Courier]

If it's an issue of Laws, work with Laws.

Give Sarah an appointment with diplomatic immunity, which extends to her minor children, and have them all driven to the airport.

Maybe the US Government can't help you when you are outside its jurisdiction. But when you manage to get yourself to an American Embassy or Consulate and you are hounded by a foreign power, particularly a hostile one, and have not committed any crime, then the US Government should move Heaven and Earth to help you.

[dennisw]

It's been less than a week, and we've had no reporting except by WND / Roush. Haven't heard a word from State / DOJ / WH directly - does that mean inaction to you?

What pressure do you expect them to apply? What do you think would work?

The USA seems to be able to deal with and pressure the Saudis when we needed airbases and other favors. Where there's a will there's a way and I don't think it would take much doing since the Saudi just might want to avoid building up their image as malevolent abductors of children. It's all about Islamics being able to brag about how many Islamics (body count) there are and to Islamics not to leave the faith

Best case scenario is the incident is allowed to chill out for  few months then the 3 American citizens are allowed to leave Saudi Arabia. (I can find nothing on this by Mowbray.)

[Ready4Freddy]

"Give Sarah an appointment with diplomatic immunity, which extends to her minor children, and have them all driven to the airport."

LOL, courier, best suggestion I've heard so far!

Wonder what the Saudis would do when she shows up at an airport, tries to leave, and can't show how she and the kids came into the country on that same diplo pass. She & the kids won't be leaving from a Saudi airport unless the Saudi govt acquiesces.

Let's not forget the rest of the women & children in Sarah's situation - if we don't work something out w/ the Saudis that includes them, and we do manage to get Sarah & the kids out, Sarah will be the last such mother to make it to an Embassy or Consulate for a very very long time.

[Ready4Freddy]

" I don't think it would take much doing since the Saudi just might want to avoid building up their image as malevolent abductors of children."

Their PR campaign in the US notwithstanding, I think they're far more concerned with how letting them go will play in the arab street, and with the mullahs in Saudi.

[SJackson]

If you'd like to be on or off this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

[Arpege92]

"Her case is different and if she was kidnapped, why wasn't a warrant issued on the father"

According to everything I have read about Sarah, she was indeed kidnapped by her father. As far as the warrant goes, I don't know. To tell you the truth, I don't even think a warrant on the father could have helped the mother get Sarah back from Saudi Arabia.

"Did Sarah give up her U.S. citizenship"

I don't think so....but if she did, would the U.S. consulate allow her and her children to seek refuge in there building?

"Why did her mother abandon her, and did she get custody in a U.S. court"

Sarah was kidnapped, there is a big difference between abandoning and kidnapping. I know you mean well, but I just don't understand why you put so much blame on Sarah and her mother. Yes, her mother married a man from the "Stone ages" but should her daughter suffer because of her mothers bad choices.

[darkwing104]

Sarah was kidnapped, there is a big difference between abandoning and kidnapping. I know you mean well, but I just don't understand why you put so much blame on Sarah and her mother. Yes, her mother married a man from the "Stone ages" but should her daughter suffer because of her mothers bad choices

I'am not blaming Sarah, just her mother. I just wonder how much Sarah really knows about America. Did she want to be an American after talking to her mother? (Being in the military I have seen cases where ex-pats became American where it suit them.) So far, I haven't seen anything definitive that showed where she was kidnapped, only what the mother is saying. I'm no big fan of the Saudis but I haven't heard anything from them. I'm just asking questions and not trying to flame anybody. I'm also concerned that Sarah may stay in the U.S. for about six months. Go running back to Saudi and say how evil and decadent we are. It could happen. (not intended a flame) Just something to think about.

I have to agree with dennisw's post Best case scenario is the incident is allowed to chill out for few months then the 3 American citizens are allowed to leave Saudi Arabia.

If it was a case of an American getting married to an Arab and goes to live in their country, they should've of known what they got into. It's a matter of making ones own bed. If they came for me begging for help, forget it don't waste my time. It was their choice. If they have any kids I can feel only sorry for them

[Cicero]

The real guilty party was not Sarah but her mother. It was her foolishness that got her daughter into this mess. Yes, that sounds like blaming the victim, I know. But any freeborn American woman who marries a Saudi needs to have her head examined.

[SarahW]

The rest of the story?

You mean the part about the mother complying with visitation and allowing her daughter to visit her father in Texas? About him not only not being prevented from leaving the country with her (he kidnapped her, in violation of a US custody order that applied to him) but the State department refusing to do anything about the kidnapping, despite the mother's considerable efforts, which have never ended.

How about Sarah being locked up for YEARS in her fathers home? About the beating, the constant verbal abuse and threats to kill her, the forced marriage (she was SOLD), where her "husband" forcibly raped her?

Saudi's should be estopped from any claim to the children.
When it refused to acknowlege, flouted, the US cutody order pertaining to Sarah, a woman born in America to an American citizen, by a Saudi who lived in America and MARRIED in America under American laws, it can not cry out that it's laws are being violated if Sarah should leave with her children.

It should be the policy of our president (and the state department) that the Saudi's don't get away with flouting OUR laws.

And try not to forget that to leave the children to their father is to leave them in chains and slavery.

To quote Patrick Henry, Forbid it, Almighty God!

[FITZ]

Our government IS NOT in the custody business.

The federal government has not handled child custody battles it did get involved in very well..... Jonestown...Waco....Elian... I don't think the Constitution gave the federal government the responsibility of custody disputes.

[JustPiper]

Thanks for piping up!

Thats me, The Piping Piper -lol-

[Proud2BeFree]

I don't know the whole story here but the mother may not have had a choice on letting the child visit with her father. More than one parent has been court ordered to allow their children to visit with the other parent even in cases where the parent KNEW that the child was at risk of being snatched. The parent with custody is often threatened by the court with lost custody, no visitation, and jail if they refuse to allow the visit.

The courts will tell you that your suspicion is not grounds to refuse a visit - that the visits cannot be stopped just because you "think" they are going to do something - they cannot be stopped unless or until the noncustodial parent actually interferes with custody. By the time the court recognizes that the parent has snatched the child, the child may be in another country - and your chances of getting the kids back can be slim.

I know of one Mom in Texas who tried to stop a weekend visit for her son with her ex. In this case, the mom had received a credit card statement (her ex was still using her Am Ex) that showed 2 tickets to Cairo for that weekend. The mom showed that to the court, and the judge told her that he had no way to be sure that the father intended not to return the child. He threatened the mom with loss of custody and visitation if she didn't allow the visit.

She allowed the visit. She hasn't seen her son in 6 years. He's in Egypt. Went there on those tickets.

And it's not just mom's - there are a number of dad's who come to mind - one is in a fairly high profile case right now where the Egyptian grandmother snatched the kids and took them to Cairo, and the father has so far been unable to recover the kids. Grandma is in jail in the US. Kids and mom are in Cairo.

People make stupid choices in love every day - the guy or girl next door can turn out to be a nightmare. It doesn't just happen with middle eastern spouses - the difference is when both spouses are in the jurisdiction of the court the court has the authority to ensure that it's orders are followed through on. When one person flees the jurisdiction, the court can order anything it wants all day - but in many cases it cannot enforce those orders.

[TaxRelief]

Click the NEWS tab when using Google for News Articles

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,90212,00.html

http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/reuters06-23-132816.asp?reg=MIDEAST

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=27847&d=23&m=6&y=2003&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom

http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/36965.htm

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33208

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/19/saudi.american.woman/

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,89885,00.html

[Roughneck]

Sometimes we all need to here "the rest of the story".

Thanks. Can't say it changes my mind about government interferance with "domestic disputes", but it puts a light on the subject.

[Roughneck]

I have to admit to being judgemental. But the whole story, being read, does not make the U.S. Government any more responsible for custody battles taking place in Saudi Arabia.

The Saudis DO have their laws as well. In their country, Saudi law trumps our own. WHY are these families speaking out now - in todays explosive, political climate? The time to speak out was years ago.

The government is not responsible for cleaning up the mess a private citizen makes for themselves.

These mothers, fathers, children, involved in child theft in the middle east, created their own problem, and now IMPLY that the "government" should "do something" Saudis..)

All this whining about what the government did not do, has not done, will not do...is covering up the fact that some people made BAD decisions, without the help of the feds I might add.

Sorry this is so dis-jointed, it's still early for me. . .

[Alouette]

The Saudis DO have their laws as well. In their country, Saudi law trumps our own.

Let's step back in time 60 years. The Germans DO have their laws as well. In the Reich, German law trumps our own.

I am so sick of hearing about these Saudi robber princes. I can't think of a single reason why we should not dismantle that pirate regime just like we did to Iraq. We should have done it on Sept. 12, 2001.

[Roughneck]

Sarah's plight is a bad one for sure. Sarah did not bring this on herself - her MOTHER did, that is who I was referring to.

The women marries a Saudi, loses her daughter, then cries over national TV that our government does not "care". Seems like SHE is the one who did not care. This whole episode was a direct result of her marrying a foreigner.

It was well known 22years ago that Saudis kidnap kids. The woman just did not think it would happen to her - thats all.

My biggest gripe is that these women are trying to make the U.S. Government look like the "bad guy" in all of this.

As for Sarah, maybe something can be done, but USA citizens who make bad choices, when they come to uncle sam for help, ought to do it with hat in hand . . .

[Roughneck]

Well, I'm not sure we should go global thermonuclear war w/ the Saudis over this, unless we're willing to do it for all abducted kids, when the abduction occur"


My point exactly. (though not as well put)
Thanks for the link.