Traditionalists preparing for Catholic conversion

Church of England Newspaper ^ | 4 December 2003 | staff writer

[Hermann the Cherusker]

OK, let's se..the ECUSA breaks up..we have a long and protracted legal battle to hold onto our property and treasure, so we join the RCs and get to fund the settlements for the pervert priests? Not me...

Or maybe there is no legal battle because the Church of Rome buys your parishes out of bondage for you ...

And if you become "uniates" you won't be part of the Latin Rite.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

You are welcome! Roman is a glorious title used by the Church for almost its whole existence since legalization. No need to despise it.

[Pyro7480]

Well, technically they will in the Latin rite, but under the "Anglican Use."

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Fair enough. But it still seems odd given the, um, traditional order of authority in the Anglican Communion wherein there is no one necessarily-infallible human authority, but instead at the top level is the council of primates.

I think of Article 26 ...

And if they submit, I guess they give up Article 19: "...the Church of Rome hath erred..." (Of course, if they submit, the Articles no longer govern.)

Since most of the Anglo-Catholics don't take these seriously in a Protestant sense and accept the Catholic Catechism as a rule of faith, I don't see a problem.

[bobjam]

FiF may be able to establish an inter-Communion settlement of some sort, but I don't see them joining Rome. Rome's Mariology, Purgatory, papal infallibility, clerical celibacy, etc are at least inconsistent with traditional Anglicanism.

[ahadams2]

trad_anglican wrote "I believe that's what Moyer and Hepworth (Primate of the Traditional Anglican Communion) are proposing. It's still in preliminary talks, though, so it's impossible to say how it would work or whether it would work at all. I do not believe they are talking about the Anglican Use option that has been in place for a number of years."

To the best of my very limited knowledge on this topic I believe trad_anglican is correct. My understanding is that it would be a uniate rite, though whether the current Anglican Use Book of Divine Worship (which is based on the ecusa 1979 BCP, which is based on the RC NO liturgy) would be used is sort of iffy. That's because the majority of the folks on the Anglican side of this discussion don't use the '79 BCP now...might be something adapted from the '28 BCP instead.
Again, I need to stress that I'm very much simply going by what I've read in passing of other folks discussions, and NO ONE involved in the contacts between either FIF and/or TAC and Vatican have told me anything.

[Pyro7480]

Rome's Mariology, Purgatory, papal infallibility, clerical celibacy, etc are at least inconsistent with traditional Anglicanism.

"Traditional" in what sense? Before Henry VIII and his minions got their hands on the Church in England, "Mariology" and all of these were part of the traditions. Why don't you ask the Anglican-Use Catholic about their experience? Their liturgy was only enriched, not really changed. Refer to the introduction below that I copied from another poster.

There has been a long and often close relationship between
the Anglican and Catholic Churches. In many important areas
there remains a mutual recognition of the validity of key
doctrines, liturgies, and practices. And the Catholic
Church continues to hold and propagate the faith and moral
teachings as handed down by the Apostles.

In 1980 the Holy See, in response to requests from priests
and laity of the Episcopal Church who were seeking full
communion with the Catholic Church, created a Pastoral
Provision to provide them with special pastoral attention.

Three key areas were addresed in this document:
1 - Establishment of parishes for former Episcopalians
2 - Development of liturgies familiar to Anglicans
3 - Ordination of Episcopalian ministers as priests

The establishment of personal parishes in dioceses of the
United States was in response to the many requests of
former faithful of the Episcopal Church. Several have been
set up under this provision:

Our Lady of the Atonement Parish, San Antonio, TX
Our Lady of Walsingham Parish, Houston, TX
St. Mary the Virgin Parish, Arlington, TX
St. Thomas More Parish Fort Worth, TX
St. Margaret of Scotland Parish, Austin, TX
St. Anselm of Canterbury Catholic Mission, Corpus Christi, TX
St. Athanasius Congregation, Boston, MA
Church of the Good Shepherd Parish, Columbia, SC
Atlanta Area AU Catholic Laity, Dunwoody, GA
California AU Catholic Laity, St. Francis of Assisi Church, La Quinta, CA

They also retain certain liturgical elements proper to the
Anglican tradition. This Anglican Use liturgy uses the
Book of Common Prayer (with minor updates) for the Mass.
So there is no need to lose the liturgy Anglicans are
familiar with. This Mass is valid for all Catholics as well.

Under the Provision the ordination of married Episcopal
priests was made possible as well. Since 1983, close to 100
former Episcopal ministers have been ordained for priestly
ministry in Catholic dioceses of the United States.
(Yes, there are married priests in the Latin-rite church).

Resources for those interested in the Catholic faith:

Catholic Answers
www.catholic.com
A superb site for clearing away the myths propagated by too many.
Offers free on-line library that examines all the major issues,
free on-line archive of over 1,500 hours of radio/audio material,
plus magazines, books, pamphlets, tracts, videos, and more.

Coming Home Network
www.chnetwork.org
Provides fellowship, encouragement and support for Protestant
pastors and laymen who are somewhere along the journey or
have already been received into the Catholic Church.

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism
www.biblicalcatholic.com
Dave Armstrong's monster site. Eclectic, fun, exhaustingly
detailed, personal, moving, and more.

Resources for those interested in the Anglican Use rite:

Yahoo Discussion Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AnglicanUse/

And our own Sockmonkey and B-Chan are Anglican Use converts.
They have generously made themselves available for answering
questions via FreepMail.

May the Word be a lamp unto your feet and a light unto your path.

[NeoCaveman]

No need to despise it.

I certainly don't despise it. I said Roman when I meant Latin. I'm not so well versed yet, but I am learning. Thanks again.

[Eala]

I wonder though if doctrinal problems can be bridged such as an all male clergy (of course yours would continue to include married men without a problem),

Actually I'm not in this boat right now, having left ECUSA for a traditional Anglican denomination a couple decades back. And we have an all-male clergy.

prohibition on birth control (despite the widespread diobedience by the faithful), and papal infallability (which is a rather limited concept, but still a binding one)

I would suspect these would be bigger issues. But can you enlighten me: How is papal infallibility a "limited concept"?

[ahadams2]

forgot to mention - to the best of my knowledge neither TAC nor FIF accept the 'ordination' of women.

[ArrogantBustard]

It looks more like the arrangement the various Byzantine, Melkite, etc. Catholics have: a parallel, geographically overlapping hierarchy.

[ahadams2]

any idea if there's a place on the net which describes how such groups are set up? It might answer some questions just to see how this sort of thing has already been done. I don't know about anyone else, but although I've at least heard of the Byzantine folks,the Melkites are entirely new to me.

Given the reference to one entire ecusa diocese going to Rome (as posted yesterday http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1033395/posts )
The more info we can get to folks on this topic, the better.

[NeoCaveman]

How is papal infallibility a "limited concept"?

In practice it is rarely invoked. I think the average is once per pontificate. Being an average, I'm sure some have used it more and others not at all.

When it is it must meet certain conditions, I believe there are 4 total, someone will correct me if I'm wrong

1. It is only on matters of faith and morals
2. The pope must invoke it, speaking as the successor of Peter
3. It must not contradict previous papal teachings on faith and morals.
I think there's also another one. I'd ping Hermann the C if I could remember how to spell his name, he'd know if I got this right.

[NeoCaveman]

See #33 please. Did I miss or mistate anything?

[ArrogantBustard]

Here is the homepage forHoly Transfiguration Melkite-Greek Catholic Church. Several friends of mine are of this Parish. Although they are physically located in Fairfax County, their bishop is not Bishop Paul Loverde of the Diocese of Arlington. I can't recall his name to mind, but I believe he is in Philadelphia. The Eastern Rite dioceses are geographically huge, compared to the Latin Rite dioceses.

Web search < melkite greek catholic > or < byzantine catholic > or < eastern rite catholic > to get some idea of how it works.

My friends' Liturgy at Holy Transfiguration is rather different from mine at St. XXXXXXXXX, but both are part of the same (Roman) Catholic Church. I am completely welcome to worship with them, and participate in their Holy Mysteries; they are completely welcome to worship with us, and participate in our Sacraments.

[Unam Sanctam]

The following page at the "Biblical Evidence for Catholicism" website has some links with information relating to Eastern Catholics:

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ12.HTM#EASTERN%20CATHOLICS

[Hermann the Cherusker]

any idea if there's a place on the net which describes how such groups are set up? It might answer some questions just to see how this sort of thing has already been done. I don't know about anyone else, but although I've at least heard of the Byzantine folks,the Melkites are entirely new to me.

Given the reference to one entire ecusa diocese going to Rome (as posted yesterday http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1033395/posts )

Actually, even better than Melkites and Byzantines would be talking to the Traditionalist Diocese of Campos under Bishop Rifan. They are the spiritual descendants of Bishop Castro de Mayer who reconciled en masse to Rome at the end of 2001 and left their semi-union with the SSPX. They just set up shop a couple of years ago under similar circumstances as an Apostolic Administration, which gives them complete freedom of action within a definite territory.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2CAMPO.HTM

http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dsjmv.html
Diocesean phone and address given on that site.

http://www.seminario-campos.org.br/ (Official website - in Portuguese)

Bishop Fernando Arêas Rifan
Rua Miranda Pinto, 26
Parque Leopoldina
CEP: 28.051-245
Campos, RJ Brasil

Ut unum sint!

[NYer]

any idea if there's a place on the net which describes how such groups are set up?

This may give you some historical perspective. It is from: http://www.cnewa.org/ecc-melkite.htm

* * * * *

Catholic Eastern Churches: From the Orthodox Church – Melkite Catholic Church

The word “Melkite” comes from the Syriac and Arabic words for “King,” and was originally used to refer to those within the ancient Patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem who accepted the christological faith professed by the Byzantine Emperor after the Council of Chalcedon (451). Today, however, the term more often refers to Byzantine Catholics associated with those three Patriarchates.

Jesuits, Capuchins and Carmelites began missionary activity in the Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch in the mid-17th century. While there were some conversions, the missionaries were primarily concerned with forming a pro-Catholic party within the Patriarchate itself. By the early 18th century, the Antiochene church had become polarized, with the pro-Catholic party centered in Damascus and the anti-Catholic party in its rival city, Aleppo.

Patriarch Athanasios III Debbas, who died on August 5, 1724, had designated as his successor a Cypriot monk named Sylvester. His candidacy was supported by the Aleppo party and the Patriarch of Constantinople. But on September 20, 1724, the Damascus party elected as Patriarch a strongly pro-Catholic man who took the name Cyril VI. A week later, the Patriarch of Constantinople ordained Sylvester as Patriarch of Antioch. The Ottoman government recognized Sylvester, while Cyril was deposed and excommunicated by Constantinople and compelled to seek refuge in Lebanon. Pope Benedict XIII recognized Cyril’s election as Patriarch of Antioch in 1729. Thus the schism was formalized, and the Catholic segment of the patriarchate eventually became known as the Melkite Greek Catholic Church.

In the beginning this new Catholic community was limited to what is now Syria and Lebanon. But Melkite Catholics later began to immigrate to Palestine, where Melkite communities had long existed, and especially to Egypt after that country rebelled against Turkish control. In view of the new demographic situation, the Melkite Catholic Patriarch was given the additional titles of Patriarch of Jerusalem and Alexandria in 1838.

At first the Ottoman government was very hostile to this new church and took strong measures against it. But conditions improved with the passage of time. In 1848 the government formally recognized the Melkite Catholic Church, and the Patriarchate itself moved to Damascus from Holy Savior Monastery near Sidon, Lebanon, where it had been established by Cyril VI after he fled there. This was followed by a period of growth, enhanced by the popular perception of the Melkite church as a focus of Arab resistance against the Turks. The Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, on the other hand, was viewed by many as dependent upon Constantinople and therefore upon the Ottoman government.

In the 19th century the Melkite church experienced tensions in its relationship with Rome because many Melkites felt that their Byzantine identity was being overwhelmed by the Latin tradition. This uneasiness was symbolized at Vatican I when Melkite Patriarch Gregory II Youssef left Rome before the council fathers voted on the constitution Pastor Aeternus, which defined papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction. At Rome’s request, the Patriarch later assented to the document, but he only did so with the clause, “all rights, privileges and prerogatives of the Patriarchs of the Eastern Churches being respected” added to the formula.

At the Second Vatican Council, Melkite Patriarch Maximos IV Sayegh spoke forcefully against the latinization of the Eastern Catholic churches, and urged a greater receptivity to the eastern Christian traditions, especially in the area of ecclesiology. Today the Melkite bishops, including Patriarch Maximos IV, support the idea that, in the event of a reconciliation between the Orthodox and Catholic churches, their church should be reintegrated into the Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch. A bilateral commission for dialogue between the Melkites and Antiochene Orthodox was established in 1995, and both sides expressed the firm intention to heal the schism of 1724 [see the Patriarchate of Antioch].

St. Anne’s Seminary in Jerusalem, under the direction of the White Fathers (now called the Missionaries of Africa), was the main seminary for the Melkite church until it was closed in 1967 because of the political situation. There are now three major seminaries in the Melkite church: the patriarchal seminary of St. Anne in Raboué, Lebanon; Holy Savior Seminary in Beit Sahour, Israel, for dioceses in Israel, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza; and St. Gregory the Theologian Seminary in Newton, Massachusetts, USA, for the United States and other English-speaking countries. The Melkite Paulist Fathers direct an important theological institute at Harissa and administer a well-known publishing house.

After the Maronites, the Melkite Catholic Church is the largest and most prosperous Catholic community in the Middle East. The majority of its faithful live in Syria, Lebanon, Israel, the West Bank, and Jordan.

Significant emigration from the Middle East in recent years has created flourishing Melkite communities in the West. Bishop John Adel Elya presides over the Diocese of Newton of the Melkites in the United States (19 Dartmouth Street, West Newton, Massachusetts 02165) with 38 parishes and 28,000 members. In Canada, the diocese of Saint-Sauveur de Montréal, under the guidance of Bishop Sleiman Hajjar (34 Maplewood, Outremont, Quebec H2V 2M1), has 12 parishes and 43,000 faithful. Bishop Issam Darwish heads the diocese of St. Michael’s of Sydney in Australia (25 Golden Grove Street, Darlington, NSW 2008), which has nine parishes for 45,000 Melkite Catholics. There is also a parish in London.

LOCATION: Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Egypt, Jordan, the Palestinian Authority, the Americas, Europe, Australia
HEAD: Patriarch Gregory III Laham (born 1933, elected 2000)
TITLE: Patriarch of Antioch of the Greek Melkites
RESIDENCE: Damascus, Syria
MEMBERSHIP: 1,284,000

[NYer]

any idea if there's a place on the net which describes how such groups are set up?

This seems to be more specific ...

Eastern Rite churches are communities of eastern Christians in union with the Roman Catholic church. Also known as Uniate churches, they retain their own distinctive spiritual, liturgical, and canonical traditions. In addition to differences from the Roman (Western) rite in liturgy, many of the Eastern Rite churches permit a married clergy.

UNIATE CHURCHES

[Hermann the Cherusker]

In practice it is rarely invoked. I think the average is once per pontificate.

Yes and no. As far as extraordinary pronouncements go, yes. But no, because the ordinary magisterium is also considered infallible, but in a different way (it is not settling debates but expositing the common faith).

John Paul II has invoked the extraordinary magisterium once in condemning the ordaintion of women, and three times in condeming murder, abortion, and euthanasia in "Evangelium Vitae".

1. It is only on matters of faith and morals

Canonizations are also infallible. So are historical and physical circumstances connected to faith and morals.

The fourth thing your looking for is a teaching intended for the whole Church.