Posted on 10/13/2005 7:17:36 AM PDT by Pyro7480
Not for long. Hold my beer... ;)
About Liturgy/Mass, we must be educated/instructed in its various aspects, its purpose, its meaning, our role in it etc.
You are too much of a Christian to trumpet your knowledge in this matter but your brothers and sisters can read what you post and draw obvious conclusions.
. In any event, IMO, the Church in America is woefully unctechized in matters Liturgical and it is the Duty of the Bishops, and the Priests under him, to teach we the sheep.
D.L./Mass/Liturgy is the pluperfect prayer of the church and too many of us Christians are not "getting it," and it shows in our lives outside of D.L.
And it shows in how we participate in D.L. and how much nonsense, inauthenticity, etc we tolerate
"I agree in general. However, the will, intellect, and memory of our souls must be more than graced for us to experience Liturgy rightly and to participate in it authentically.
About Liturgy/Mass, we must be educated/instructed in its various aspects, its purpose, its meaning, our role in it etc."
Oh, I suppose you are right. I had the "advantage" of an education by the Sisters of Mercy back in the 1950s and early 60s. Along with all the "eat meat and Friday, go to Hell on Saturday, you wretched little boy" stuff, came a pretty solid education in the sacraments and the Liturgy and all that was reinforced three afternoons a week in the choir loft of our little Greek Orthodox Church by the priest at Greek School.
There is, however, the transforming power of grace which strikes some at their first Liturgy. Just recently someone, perhaps NYer, posted a snip from a Protestant minister about his first time at Mass. Its marvelous and demonstrates just what I have been talking about. I can't seem to find it. Was it you, NYer?
And then there was the reaction of the envoys of Prince Vladimir of Kiev to their first Liturgy at Constantinople:
""We knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth, for surely there is no such splendor or beauty anywhere on earth. We cannot describe it to you; we only know that God dwells there among men and that their Service surpasses the worship of all other places..."
"You are too much of a Christian to trumpet your knowledge in this matter but your brothers and sisters can read what you post and draw obvious conclusions."
My massively swelled head prevents me from responding further save to recommend you read Step 22 of +John Climacus' Ladder of Divine Ascent! :)
Great article ... thanks for the link to their web site.
Yes ... it was from Dr. Scott Hahn. I posted in response to a comment from one of the prots who suggested that an 8th grade Baptist knew the Bible better than most catholics. Most catholics, however, have more exposure to Scripture than a Baptist but don't realize it. Here is Dr. Hahn's commentary:
Scott Hahn’s The Lamb's Supper - The Mass as Heaven on Earth.
Foreword by Fr. Benedict Groeschel.
Part One - The Gift of the Mass
Hahn begins by describing the first mass he ever attended.
"There I stood, a man incognito, a Protestant minister in plainclothers, slipping into the back of a Catholic chapel in Milwaukee to witness my first Mass. Curiosity had driven me there, and I still didn't feel sure that it was healthy curiosity. Studying the writings of the earliest Christians, I'd found countless references to "the liturgy," "the Eucharist," "the sacrifice." For those first Christians, the Bible - the book I loved above all - was incomprehensible apart from the event that today's Catholics called "the Mass."
"I wanted to understand the early Christians; yet I'd had no experience of liturgy. So I persuaded myself to go and see, as a sort of academic exercise, but vowing all along that I would neither kneel nor take part in idolatry."
I took my seat in the shadows, in a pew at the very back of that basement chapel. Before me were a goodly number of worshipers, men and women of all ages. Their genuflections impressed me, as did their apparent concentration in prayer. Then a bell rang, and they all stood as the priest emerged from a door beside the altar.
Unsure of myself, I remained seated. For years, as an evangelical Calvinist, I'd been trained to believe that the Mass was the ultimate sacrilege a human could commit. The Mass, I had been taught, was a ritual that purported to "resacrifice Jesus Christ." So I would remain an observer. I would stay seated, with my Bible open beside me.
As the Mass moved on, however, something hit me. My Bible wasn't just beside me. It was before me - in the words of the Mass! One line was from Isaiah, another from Psalms, another from Paul. The experience was overwhelming. I wanted to stop everything and shout, "Hey, can I explain what's happening from Scripture? This is great!" Still, I maintained my observer status. I remained on the sidelines until I heard the priest pronounce the words of consecration: "This is My body . . . This is the cup of My blood."
Then I felt all my doubt drain away. As I saw the priest raise that white host, I felt a prayer surge from my heart in a whisper: "My Lord and my God. That's really you!"
I was what you might call a basket case from that point. I couldn't imagine a greater excitement than what those words had worked upon me. Yet the experience was intensified just a moment later, when I heard the congregation recite: "Lamb of God . . . Lamb of God . . . Lamb of God," and the priest respond, "This is the Lamb of God . . ." as he raised the host. In less than a minute, the phrase "Lamb of God" had rung out four times. From long years of studying the Bible, I immediately knew where I was. I was in the Book of Revelation, where Jesus is called the Lamb no less than twenty-eight times in twenty-two chapters. I was at the marriage feast that John describes at the end of that very last book of the Bible. I was before the throne of heaven, where Jesus is hailed forever as the Lamb. I wasn't ready for this, though - I was at Mass!
This is a sincere and excellent question and one that should be posed to a catholic as they are leaving church. It would be challenging for those, like us, who are more theologically developed as a result of this forum :-) Seriously, and I'm sure others here would agree, the discussions in this forum are comparable to Theology 101, if no 102. It is through these discussions that we feel challenged to spend more time reading Scripture, the Catechism and the lives of the Saints.
That said, in my pre FR days, there was the pre and post VCII Latin Mass. Having had my faith formed for the most part, pre VCII (Baltimore Catechism), I can cite only my own impressions. From earliest childhood we were told that only the priest could touch the consecrated host. That message was burned into my brain as surely as if done with a branding iron. When post VCII, they began giving communion in the hand, I was absolutely scandalized, and still am. No matter how many times someone says that is the way it was done in the early church, one must also consider that over the span of centuries, the church fathers, through prayer and reflection, recognized the dignity and respect due to our Lord, present in the consecrated host, and changed that practice. We evolved theologically over time and in one fell swoop, reverted back to ancient times. In this regard, the Latin Church resolved distribution of the Eucharist to large congregations but dissolved the reverence. And with that slip down the slope, the other aspects followed, like proper dress, etc.
My heart is so much lighter now, watching reverence displayed by a holy priest and small congregation. Profound bows towards the Tabernacle, in recognition of the Real Presence. No one in the parish doubts it. A priest dropping to his knees, hands raised heavenward to call down the Holy Spirit to accept our offerings while the congregation chants - kyrie eleison - and no one doubts what is unfolding before our eyes. Receiving by intinction on the tongue with the words - "Receive the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins and eternal salvation" - and no one doubts this either. And remaining standing after communion until Abouna places the remaining hosts into the Tabernacle, profoundly bowing and closing the door before we sit down, is still one more example of the proper reverence due to our Lord. Truly, the Divine Liturgy is "heaven on earth".
"I freely admit that I do not fully understand the Latin phronema. I do understand that people feel free to dress down"
I think I understand it, but I've never had much success boiling it down.
Starting with JFK and his blue jeans and topsiders, America has suffered a trend toward the elevation of casual dress to a virtue.
The much overrated Bob Dylan wrote, "His clothes are dirty, but his hands are clean." This notion was taken further, perhaps unconsciously, to a presumption that if your clothes are clean your hands must be dirty. Of course, there's also the influence of leftists adopting the dress of "the proletariat."
In some circles today casual dress is worn proudly in inappropriate venues as a sign that one is important enough to get away with it and not, as the entertainment industry calls them, "A suit."
In part it was a mutiny against "the establishment," a defiant statement of disrespect. In part it was a rebellion against uncomfortable clothing, a statement that "My comfort is more important than showing respect by wearing uncomfortable clothing."
These larger social trends were brought into the Church during the uproar of the sixties, the express reason being that it's more important for a person to come to Mass than not to come because he has no decent clothes.
Today, it seems to be almost universally accepted in America that "Clothes don't matter. It's what's on the inside that counts." Once you accept that, it's a short step to, "Might as well be comfortable." I've been pretty thoroughly reviled right here on FR for defending the value of showing respect through dress.
If I had worn a suit to Mass on base tonight, I would have been the only one to do so. Not wanting to appear pharisaical or sanctimonious, I wear more casual attire that doesn't stand out. When I go to the early Mass at the Japanese Church, I wear a suit so as not to stand out.
BTW, the priest gave a homily on the establishment clause of the First Amendment, and got it right.
This was commonly done in the parish I attended in Minnesota. The only problem was the attitude of the altar girls (and boys, occasionally). They held the patens with such disregard for the service it should provide that any dropped Host would simply have ricocheted off the paten and slid to the floor in any case. Just because it's there doesn't mean it will provide any protection for the Precious Body.
You know, this piece is really magnificent!
"I think we need to quit worrying about whether other people think we are "sanctimonious" or "pharisaical" and worry about what Our Lord thinks."
Yes, you make some very good points. At the same time, I doubt that making one's self a disruptive element for no good purpose would please Him.
Yes! It ties in perfectly with the article written by Steve Wood, another convert. In it he explains How I led Catholics Out of the Church .
STEP 1: Get Catholics to have a conversion experience in a Protestant setting. - Protestant pastors, evangelists, youth leaders, and lay ministers are acutely aware that conversion experiences in Protestant settings often lead to a Protestant faith and church membership.
In Hahn's case, the reverse was true. He had the conversion experience in a Catholic setting. And it was precisely his years of reading the Bible that enabled him to recognize all the Scriptural passages that make up the liturgy.
I printed out and shared Steve Wood's story with my pastor. He was most appreciative. It is a valuable tool in assessing the strengths and weaknesses of our catechesis. Catholic and Orthodox celebrate liturgies that date back to the very beginning, long before the advent of the printing press. It was the only way to catechize the faithful. Following the advent of the printing press and Luther's message that anyone could read and interpret Scripture, the liturgy was lost on those who had a pocket edition of their KJV Bible and felt emboldened to challenge the liturgical messages.
All of this factors into the papal attempts to bring christians back into one fold, which is what Christ intended.
"And it was precisely his years of reading the Bible that enabled him to recognize all the Scriptural passages that make up the liturgy."
I can't tell you how many times I've heard that from Protestant, usually fundamentalist, converts to Orthodoxy. One, the young freeper Pachomius is one of them. We call him our walking concordance. He's on his way home for 2 weeks leave from Iraq even as I write this and when his tour is up, its off to the seminary with him!
Many blessings and prayers for young 'Pachomius' as he enters seminary. What a beautiful and rich reward for him, his family and his future congregation.
May the Lord guide his steps to a good seminary.
*LOL You can't hide your educated eyes behind a burqa of false bravado.
I will try and hunt down that reference.
For my own part, the more I have read authentic Liturgical experts the greater my capacity to participate more fully in the Liturgy and the greater is the opportuntiy for Grace to transform my concupiscent nature. For instance, Jungmann writes about how the grand vestments of the priests mirror the shimmering beauty of Heaven (that's a paraphrase). In any event, one must be taught to love the True, the Good, the Beautiful.
One can't love anyone/anything absent knowledge of the object of one's love and that love increases a desire to know more about the object of one's love and that upward spiraling/reciprocating action, the interplay between love and intellect, lifts us up out of the mire of our fallen nature and speeds us towards that awesome moment we stand naked before Christ to give an account of our lives.
*nice example of true humility
"May the Lord guide his steps to a good seminary."
Holy Cross, which is the Greek Orthodox Archdiocesan seminary in Brookline, MA.
"Holy Cross, which is the Greek Orthodox Archdiocesan seminary in Brookline, MA."
I take it there's no problem with the lavender mafia or other heresies there.
"I take it there's no problem with the lavender mafia or other heresies there."
Some years back we had a problem with a small group of monks from Greece. We called them the "pink rasos" crowd. One of them made the mistake of putting the moves on a Palestinian seminarian who not only solved the problem with his fists, he complained loudly enough that the gays were sent packing back to Greece. As for heresies, well, it is a seminary, you know! Some of the professors there are a bit less Orthodox than we might like but they are a small minority and of little influence. On the otherhand, we have men like Fr. George Dragas teaching there who are world class, very Orthodox theologians. In any event, after years of "trying to pass for white" the past ten years have seen a real sea change in the faculty towards a far more conservative or perhaps I should say traditional theology.
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