Posted on 11/15/2005 8:50:35 AM PST by TheStickman
Thanks for the explanation. What if there are children from said marriage?
One more question. What if the marriage was in the RCC? Can it still be considered invalid?
Well, it *could*, but certain things would have to be present.
The Church works on the presumption that all Catholic marriages are valid, and goes from there. There are certain impediments to marriage that render any attempt at it null. If a man married anyone in his direct line of relationship, or his aunt, or niece, or first cousin, for example, the marriage is null, even if the couple successfully hid the biological relationship from the church, and no one present at the wedding knew about it (unlikely, but possible at least in the case of cousins).
If the Catholic party in a mixed marriage did not get dispensation from the bishop of his/her diocese to get married in the non-Catholic church, or if one or both parties are Catholic and get married by a JP, then the marriage is null due to "lack of proper form." These types of things can actually be retroactively remedied when the couple realizes their error and seeks to have it corrected by a process known as "sanation," or, in the vernacular, getting the marriage "blessed by the Church."
If the couple had already agreed to deliberately thwart any possibility of children, or even one of them secretly harbored the intention to do this without disclosing the intention to the other; or if the couple agreed that the marriage would be temporary or until they "grew tired of the relationship," or if just one of them had inwardly decided this, the marriage is null. If there was fraud, or force, same thing. Also, if the man knew before the marriage that he was incapable of consumating it, and never disclosed this fact to his bride, the marriage is null.
In some of these cases, an inward, secret decision or a pact between the couple is made to do or not do certain things, and that can nullify the marriage. You might think: "Well, *anyone* can say, after the fact of divorce, that they determined to do these things, just to get the annulment." True. But why would a person want an annulment so badly as to lie about evidence that provides it? To get another church wedding? Well, no one can fool God in these things. The Church supposes that any reasonable person wopuld know this, and has to accept in good faith that such testimony at a tribunal is truthful. An annulment would likely be granted in such a scenario, and a third-party entering into a subsequent marriage with one of the original partners would be doing so in good faith, but the guilty party or parties would just be compounding their own problem.
The only other cases "traditionally" recognized involve a marriage between two unbaptized people, or a marriage where one is baptized and another is not, and neither of these really is a situation of "annulment," as the marriages were contracted validly, if not sacramentally.
The former situation takes its justification from 1 Corinthians 7:12-15, and, because it comes from St. Paul, it is often referred to as the "Pauline Privelege." It is restricted to cases where neither one of the parties was a Christian at the time of the wedding, and, subsequently, one of the wants to convert, and the other puts up so many barriers, violent or otherwise, as to make the conversion impossible or incapable of being accomplished without perpetual turmoil in the househols. If the non-Christian party is willing to accept the situation, however, no divorce and remarriage is allowed, as the marriage was a "natural marriage," anyway, and was therefore valid but non-sacramental.
The other case involves a marriage between a non-Catholic Christian and a non-Christian. Either person wants to become Catholic or marry a Catholic. In this case, if peace cannot be maintained, the pope can take the case and dissolve the marriage "in favor of the Faith." The faith of either the person wanting to convert, or the Catholic faith of the person the married party wishes to marry. As the original marriage is only a natural one, and non-sacramental, this can be done, though this situation is exceedingly rare.
That pretty much wraps-up the scenarios that the Church has traditionally held to. Lately, a lot more psychological grounds have been entertained by tribunals, but, frankly, the tendency is to open up so many grounds here that it makes almost *any* marriage capable of being declared null in hindsight. Plus, the liberalized grounds make a sheer mockery of passages in the Synoptic Gospels that clearly maintain the illegitimacy of divorce and remarriage as the overwhelming norm. Nevertheless, the third party entering into a marriage with a person with one of these annulments is not obligated to dissect all of the details, and, in the third party's case, the marriage may be entered into in good faith. It certainly *does* create a pretty messy situation, though, and I hope that the Church will quickly and thoroughly start restricting all of the psychobabble from future tribunals.
I hope this helps with your question.
Thanks so much for the explanation.....I think :)
It's alot to absorb. Ok, so what if the tribunal does not allow annulment. Where does that leave a Catholic or someone wanting to convert?
Anyone can convert to the Church at any time. If a person is divorced, and an annulment is not granted, he or she can still receive the Sacraments provided that there is no second marriage. It is the *remarriage*, not the divorce itself, that creates the problem. And that problem is "adultery." Obviously, there is no adultery present if the person doesn't remarry and is chaste.
A person could convert under these circumstances with absolutely no problems. If a divorced and remarried person wants to convert, that, too can be done. However, if an annulment could not be granted for the first marriage, then the convert would not be able to partake in the Sacraments. He or she would be in the same circumstance as a cradle Catholic divorced and remarried.
Gotcha. A divorced person MUST be granted an annulment in order to receive the sacraments.
should read "A divorced REMARRIED person......"
Correct. There is, however, one scenario, already discussed elsewhere on this thread, that is something of an exception.
If a peron is divorced and remarried with no annulment (convert or cradle, it doesn't matter), AND they have small children resulting from the second, civilly recognized marriage, AND it is necessary for the physical and moral wellbeing of the children that the couple remain as a pair under one roof, AND they can receive the Sacraments without causing scandal in their parish, THEN the Church allows the couple to receive the Sacraments during the time the economic and moral necessity exists for the rearing of the children, PROVIDED that they live "as brother and sister." Whew! That's a lot of "and's" and ""provided's" I know.
All of this stuff I've gotten into over the last few posts sounds terribly complicated, but it isn't really. In the first post, I listed the handful of situations that make a marriage invalid, and two others, Scripturally based, that "allow" the dissolution of valid natural marriages for the sake of the soul of convert to live in the Faith in peace. In the second, I clarified the situation involving converts and cradle Catholics who divorce and remarry without an annulment who want to receive the Sacraments. They can't, generally. Then, in the third post, I mentioned the sole exception relevant to post number two.
One thing is constant in all of this discussion: NO sacramental marriage (undertaken by two baptized persons, whether they are Catholic or not), undertaken without any of the impediments discussed in the last few posts, and, in the case of one or both parties being Catholic, contracted without "defect of form," can be dissolved for any reason.
It's really fairly straightforward. Our current post-Christian culture has complicated things by creating a general atmosphere of disrespect for marriage, and that has begun to make many inroads in the minds of many Catholics. But the principles still are there, and Jesus has not come down to revoke what He said about all of this in the Synoptics, so any reasonable scenario harmonizing itself with the Gospel mandate should be addressed somewhere in this discussion.
I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. I do understand the RCC stance on this. Hopefully it makes people think twice about entering into marriage lightly. Unfortunately, there are too many folks that treat it like "going steady".
I personally know of two couples that each person has been married FOUR times!! One couple RCC the other Baptist.
And I doubt they are done yet!
Hmmm - an interesting point, but my concern is less that somebody entered a marriage with fingers crossed than that the church (I'm a sold-out, born-again believer) would put itself in the position of being the arbiter of someone's private thought process when that person took his/her vows, and then give the injured spouse a pass. Any marriage takes two people to both make and break it.
my dear stickman...i have read over all you have written about the annulment process and it makes me very sad. i have just started this process and have already had my own nightmare. i didnt know all of this would take so long. i guess we can just hang in there together. i have to remember to quit getting to angry though. any thoughts?
Thank you for the kind note. Sorry your annulment is taking so long.
Thanks be to God, our nightmare ended in the fall of 2006 and our marriage was convalidated and we were brought into the fullness of the Catholic Church.
In addition to praying for understanding and strength, I advise throwing all your calenders away. Go to Mass and offer up all your anger and frustration to God, the Father. Satan fed me a bushel-load of anger during my annulment wait. Make sure you don’t let him feed you the same thing.
Always remember, God never gives us a burden we cannot carry—especially if we ask His assistance.
NOt that I don’t feel for you but an annulment SHOULD be hard to get.
No need to feel anything but joy for us. Our annulment situation has been over and completed for over a year.
You’re often in my prayers.
Blessings and best wishes for you.
sitetest
That’s what I get for not looking at dates. Congratulations and God bless you.
Thank you!
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