‘Dear Father’ - Who’s a heretic or an apostate, and what’s a schism?

St. Louis Review ^ | January 27, 2006 | Father Joseph L. Parisi

[Dewy]

So that made it OK for Rome to kill them??? It's an interesting thing about Rome, kinda like the Islam when it comes to Religious freedom.

[gbcdoj]

As the Baptists were English dissidents, and didn't really become "Baptists" until the 17th century, I fail to see how "Rome" was doing any killing of them.

If you are referring to the Anabaptists, they were not only attacking the foundations of religion, but also those of civil society (does Münster ring a bell for you?), and the Catholic and Lutheran civil authorities in Germany and elsewhere were therefore justified in taking steps to suppress them, even if they sometimes went too far in particular cases.

One of the interesting things about heresy up through the late Middle Ages and the beginning of the early modern period is that it was often joined with agitation or rebellion against the state. This was because of how religious and civil life were so closely joined then, and it certainly provided a just, or at least understandable, cause for the suppression of heresy by the civil powers.

[gbcdoj]

Hmm, the link above seems to have been corrupted due to the ü. But this should work:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Münster_Rebellion

[gbcdoj]

The catholic, or universal, Church is the Church of God spoken of in the New Testament. St. Polycarp would hardly have disagreed: he was an associate of St. Ignatius, who gives us the first written use of "catholic Church" in ~110 AD. They certainly did belong to the same Church.

Actually St. Polycarp is how we got St. Ignatius' letters in the first place. In his letter to the Phillippians, he writes:

Both you and Ignatius wrote to me, that if any one went [from this] into Syria, he should carry your letter with him; which request I will attend to if I find a fitting opportunity, either personally, or through some other acting for me, that your desire may be fulfilled. The Epistles of Ignatius written by him to us, and all the rest [of his Epistles] which we have by us, we have sent to you, as you requested. They are subjoined to this Epistle, and by them ye may be greatly profited; for they treat of faith and patience, and all things that tend to edification in our Lord. Any more certain information you may have obtained respecting both Ignatius himself, and those that were with him, have the goodness to make known to us.

Your obsession with names is puzzling. Historically speaking, the "Catholic Church" and the "Church of God" are both used to designate the same entity, the congregation of the faithful who are subject to their lawful pastors, originally established by our Lord Jesus Christ through his Holy Apostles. The nominal use of the note "catholic," and the other notes of the Church, became necessary to discriminate between the true Church and the false churches of the heretics, but the Church is certainly considered by the apostolic record to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, just as is professed in the Symbol of Faith.

"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;"

[Diego1618]

The catholic, or universal, Church is the Church of God spoken of in the New Testament.

Yes, you do have to say that.....when presented with scripture that contradicts your theology. I understand.

[Dewy]

Catholic means universal. Church means called out. True the church is a body of believers but that body has never been together on earth. That won't happen till the rapture at that time the church will be together or universal.


Church
Derived probably from the Greek kuriakon (i.e., "the Lord's house"), which was used by ancient authors for the place of worship. In the New Testament it is the translation of the Greek word ecclesia, which is synonymous with the Hebrew _kahal_ of the Old Testament, both words meaning simply an assembly, the character of which can only be known from the connection in which the word is found. There is no clear instance of its being used for a place of meeting or of worship, although in post-apostolic times it early received this meaning. Nor is this word ever used to denote the inhabitants of a country united in the same profession, as when we say the "Church of England, " the "Church of Scotland, " etc. We find the word ecclesia used in the following senses in the New Testament:
1. It is translated "assembly" in the ordinary classical sense #Ac 19:32,39,41

2. It denotes the whole body of the redeemed, all those whom the Father has given to Christ, the invisible catholic church #Eph 5:23,25,27,29 Heb 12:23

3. A few Christians associated together in observing the ordinances of the gospel are an ecclesia #Ro 16:5 Col 4:15

4. All the Christians in a particular city, whether they assembled together in one place or in several places for religious worship, were an ecclesia. Thus all the disciples in Antioch, forming several congregations, were one church #Ac 13:1 so also we read of the "church of God at Corinth" #1Co 1:2 "the church at Jerusalem" #Ac 8:1 "the church of Ephesus" #Re 2:1 etc.

5. The whole body of professing Christians throughout the world #1Co 15:9 Ga 1:13 Mt 16:18 are the church of Christ. The church visible "consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion" is called "visible" because its members are known and its assemblies are public. Here there is a mixture of "wheat and chaff, " of saints and sinners. "God has commanded his people to organize themselves into distinct visible ecclesiastical communities, with constitutions, laws, and officers, badges, ordinances, and discipline, for the great purpose of giving visibility to his kingdom, of making known the gospel of that kingdom, and of gathering in all its elect subjects. Each one of these distinct organized communities which is faithful to the great King is an integral part of the visible church, and all together constitute the catholic or universal visible church." A credible profession of the true religion constitutes a person a member of this church. This is "the kingdom of heaven, " whose character and progress are set forth in the parables recorded in #Mt 13:1ff. See BAPTISM 23435

The church invisible "consists of the whole number of the elect that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one under Christ, the head thereof." This is a pure society, the church in which Christ dwells. It is the body of Christ. it is called "invisible" because the greater part of those who constitute it are already in heaven or are yet unborn, and also because its members still on earth cannot certainly be distinguished. The qualifications of membership in it are internal and are hidden. It is unseen except by him who "searches the heart." "The Lord knoweth them that are his" #2Ti 2:19 The church to which the attributes, prerogatives, and promises appertaining to Christ's kingdom belong, is a spiritual body consisting of all true believers, i.e., the church invisible.

1. Its unity. God has ever had only one church on earth. We sometimes speak of the Old Testament Church and of the New Testament church, but they are one and the same. The Old Testament church was not to be changed but enlarged #Isa 49:13-23 60:1-14 When the Jews are at length restored, they will not enter a new church, but will be grafted again into "their own olive tree" #Ro 11:18-24 comp. #Eph 2:11-22 The apostles did not set up a new organization. Under their ministry disciples were "added" to the "church" already existing #Ac 2:47

2. Its universality. It is the "catholic" church; not confined to any particular country or outward organization, but comprehending all believers throughout the whole world.

3. Its perpetuity. It will continue through all ages to the end of the world. It can never be destroyed. It is an "everlasting kindgdom."

[gbcdoj]

Yes, you do have to say that.....when presented with scripture that contradicts your theology. I understand.

Huh? There's nothing in my theology that says the Church isn't the Church of God. Do you think we Catholics believe we belong to a Church of Man or something?

Therefore, my Lord, neither have we written with that confidence, as though we could persuade thee, if thou resistest, but in that faith by which we would not deny thee an entrance to holy peace, if thou wiliest. Which peace if it be after thine own soul and heart, there ought to be no contest about the name of Catholic. For if it is through God that our people obtain this name, no question is to be raised, when Divine authority is followed. If through man, you must discover when it was first taken. Then, if the name is good, no odium rests with it; if ill, it need not be envied. The Novatians, I hear, are called after Novatus or Novatian; yet it is the sect which I accuse in them, not the name: nor has any one objected their name to Montanus or the Phrygians.

But under the Apostles, you will say, no one was called Catholic. Be it thus. It shall have been so. Allow even that. When after the Apostles heresies had burst forth, and were striving under various names to tear piecemeal and divide the Dove and the Queen of God, did not the Apostolic people require a name of their own, whereby to mark the unity of the people that were uncorrupted, lest the error of some should rend limb by limb the undefiled virgin of God? Was it not seemly that the chief head should be distinguished by its own peculiar appellation? Suppose, this very day, I entered a populous city. When I had found Marcionites, Apollinarians, Cataphrygians, Novatians, and others of the kind who call themselves Christians, by what name should I recognise the congregation of my own people, unless it were named Catholic? Come tell me, who bestowed so many names on the other peoples? Why have so many cities, so many nations, each their own description? The man who asks the meaning of the Catholic Name, will he be ignorant himself of the cause of his own name if I shall enquire its origin? Whence was it delivered to me? Certainly that which has stood through so many ages was not borrowed from man. This name "Catholic" sounds not of Marcion, nor of Apelles, nor of Montanus, nor does it take heretics as its authors.

Many things the Holy Spirit hath taught us, Whom God sent from Heaven to the Apostles as their Comforter and Guide. Many things reason teaches us, as Paul saith, and honesty, and, as he says, nature herself. What! Is the authority of Apostolic men, of Primitive Priests, of the most blessed Martyr and Doctor Cyprian, of slight weight with us? Do we wish to teach the teacher? Are we wiser than he was, and are we puffed up by the spirit of the flesh against the man, whom his noble shedding of blood, and a crown of most glorious suffering, have set forth as a witness of the Eternal God? What thinkest thou of so many Priests on this same side, who throughout the whole world were compacted together in one bond of peace with this same Cyprian? What of so many aged Bishops, so many Martyrs, so many Confessors? Come say, if they were not sufficient authorities for the use of this name, are we sufficient for its rejection? And shall the Fathers rather follow our authority, and the antiquity of Saints give way to be emended by us, and times now putrifying through their sins, pluck out the grey hairs of Apostolic age? And yet, my brother, be not troubled; Christian is my name, but Catholic my surname. The former gives me a name, the latter distinguishes me. By the one I am approved; by the other I am but marked. (St. Pacian of Barcelona, First Epistle to Sympronian, On the Catholic Name, Repentance, & Baptism)

[Diego1618]

Huh? There's nothing in my theology that says the Church isn't the Church of God. Do you think we Catholics believe we belong to a Church of Man or something?

I read your entire response and found no scripture quote to back up your statements....where on the other hand I had shown you earlier that Jesus prayed in John 17:11 that God would protect the Church in his (God's) own name. That's why we call it "The Church of God" to this very day. If you and your fellow Catholics feel that this is unimportant....fine. If you think Jesus was serious....you had better change the name of your Church. Catholic is the wrong name. Roman Catholic is even worse!

[gbcdoj]

I read your entire response and found no scripture quote to back up your statements...

Which is not necessary where tradition or reason can suffice. St. Pacian defends quite well the term from the ancient and uninterrupted tradition of Christ's own Catholic Church.

where on the other hand I had shown you earlier that Jesus prayed in John 17:11 that God would protect the Church in his (God's) own name. That's why we call it "The Church of God" to this very day

"Let them, as fathers in Christ, take care of the faithful whom they have begotten by baptism and their teaching. Becoming from the heart a pattern to the flock, let them so lead and serve their local community that it may worthily be called by that name, by which the one and entire people of God is signed, namely, the Church of God." (Vatican Council II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, no. 28)

"With the awareness, certainly, of our human weakness, yet with all the strength impressed on our spirit by such a command, we shall accordingly make a profession of faith, pronounce a creed which, without being strictly speaking a dogmatic definition, repeats in substance, with some developments called for by the spiritual condition of our time, the creed of Nicea, the creed of the immortal tradition of the holy Church of God." (Pope Paul VI, Remarks on the Credo of the People of God, June 30, 1968)

Again, you appear to be laboring under the misconception that the Catholic Church does not regard itself as the 'Church of God.' It certainly does so. But nothing in the Holy Scriptures prevents the use of the note 'catholic' to distinguish the true Church from the false churches of heretics and schismatics.

where on the other hand I had shown you earlier that Jesus prayed in John 17:11 that God would protect the Church in his (God's) own name.

Which nowhere requires the exclusive use of the term "Church of God" to describe the Church:

Et iam non sum in mundo, et hi in mundo sunt, et ego ad te venio.
Pater sancte, serva eos in nomine tuo, quod dedisti mihi, ut sint unum sicut nos.

And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are. (St. John 17:11)

For a while therefore He condescendeth to them, because had He said, "I keep them," they would not have so well believed; wherefore He saith, "Holy Father, keep them through Thine own Name"; that is, "by thy help." (St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of St. John, 81)

[gbcdoj]

The 'rapture,' being purely the invention of men, will never happen.

If the Church on earth is not knit together by social bonds, it is not a real body of men. +Paul speaks quite differently from you in Chapter 4 of the Epistle to the Ephesians, where he writes:

"But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together, by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body, unto the edifying of itself in charity." (vv. 15-16)

The Church on earth is constituted of all truly baptized men who profess the catholic and apostolic faith and subject themselves to the Pope and the bishops in communion with him, and have not been cut off from her by the sword of excommunication. There is no 'invisible Church' to be distinguished from the visible Church: the Church on earth is of her nature a social body and hence visible. This one Church is certainly the Mystical Body of Christ on earth and to her the promises of everlasting life pertain (cf. St. Matthew 16:18-19).

[TexConfederate1861]

The first "Baptist" Congregation was formed in London, England in 1617. Anabaptists were not the same thing.

[TexConfederate1861]

The first "Baptist" Congregation was formed in London, England in 1617. Anabaptists were not the same thing.

[TexConfederate1861]

Oh jeez....get over it already. :)

[Dewy]

""The 'rapture,' being purely the invention of men, will never happen. ""

In your world it won't, but in mine it will.


Rapture in: 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15:

There is no debate that 1 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15 teach on the rapture. Both chapters also teach the resurrection and of the trumpet blast. Neither chapter mentions anything about having to endure the tribulation before the rapture comes. There is no debate that Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 teach on the physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power after the tribulation. Neither of those chapters speak of the rapture, nor of a resurrection, nor of a trumpet blast.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

[caught up=HARPAZO=Rapture]

1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thess 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

[Dewy]

We look forward to Christ's appearing and return.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Titus 2:13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Phil 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 12:1 ...let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith...

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

We do not look for, nor are told to look for, Satan's appearing, nor the tribulation to appear.

In fact, we are told to specifically avoid looking for Jesus' physical appearing or return. The reason to avoid looking for Christ's physical appearing is because the AntiChrist will appear physically and claim to be Christ, from 2 Thess 2.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Thus, we have a paradox. We look for Christ's return, but are told not to believe it if we hear he has returned, or someone claims to be Him. This mystery is solved through the pre tribulation rapture, which preceeds the appearance of the antichrist in the seven year tribulation. By the time the Lord Jesus Christ arrives at the end of the seven year tribulation, everyone on earth will suddenly know who the Lord is without question, because he will destroy the antichrist with the "brightness of his coming" (2 Thess 2:8), and every person will "look upon the one whom they pierced" (Zechariah 12:10, Revelation 1:7, John 19:37).

We know that Jesus will appear physically at the second coming (Rev. 19 & Zech 14), despite the warnings against believing a physical appearing of a false christ in Matthew.

Zech 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zech 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

More scriptures emphasizing Christians wait for and look to Christ's return and not the appearance of the AntiChrist.

1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. [In Aramaic the expression Come, O Lord is Marana tha.]

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

It's good to read books, it's best to read the BOOK.

[Dewy]

"The Church on earth is constituted of all truly baptized men who profess the catholic and apostolic faith and subject themselves to the Pope and the bishops in communion with him,"

Salvation in Christ alone:

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Pope, Priest:

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Again just in the BOOK

[GAB-1955]

"Do I dare say that I like the term heretic better than saying "our separated brothers and sisters". I don't say that to be mean but simply to show the significance of their error."

And, as one of those "heretics," I say, with my brother Martin, "Unless I am convinced by the testimonies of the Holy Scriptures or evident reason (for I believe in neither the Pope nor councils alone, since it has been established that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures that I have adduced, and my conscience has been taken captive by the Word of God; and I am neither able nor willing to recant, since it is neither safe nor right to act against conscience. God help me. Amen. "

Other than that, we don't have that much separating ourselves.