Christian mavericks find affirmation in ancient heresies

Christian Science Monitor ^ | 4/14/06 | G. Jeffrey MacDonald

[narses]

Wow, I was misinformed. I was told that the references to the perfidious jew was taken out.

[RichInOC]

Christian mavericks find affirmation in ancient heresies

Mavericks? More like Pintos.

(Or maybe even Yugos....)

[wagglebee]

And a very Happy Easter to you as well!

[wagglebee]

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves."(Matthew 7:15)

[HarleyD]

Thanks for the ping. Excellent but sad commentary on the way many think of God today. But this is the way many are heading today; shaping God into man's image.

[Campion]

The Rev. Jayne Oasin, a social justice officer for the Episcopal Church, USA., says that "to consider there to be only one truth is to me a form of oppression."

Pilate replied, "Truth? What is truth?"-John 18:8

[AnAmericanMother]

There was a reference in the old Roman Missal as part of the Good Friday liturgy. It was never in the Gospel (I went and checked the Vulgate to make sure). But of course Judas was perfidious, and he was Jewish . . . and just about everyone else involved was Jewish too (including Our Lord himself), hence I guess the adjective to distinguish him from the faithful Jews.

There are plenty of derogatory references to "the Jews" in the Acts of the Apostles and the Gospels -- seems clear from context that this refers to the religious authorities who were doing their level best to wipe out this "cult" . . . naturally the members of said cult would be kinda sore at them . . .

[Invincibly Ignorant]

There are plenty of derogatory references to "the Jews" in the Acts of the Apostles and the Gospels -- seems clear from context that this refers to the religious authorities who were doing their level best to wipe out this "cult" . . . naturally the members of said cult would be kinda sore at them . .

Clear to you maybe. Its clearer to me that writers, redactors and interpolaters in Rome, a place from where invaders wiped out Jerusalem a couple of centuries earlier, inherited their anti-semetic attitudes.

[AnAmericanMother]

Nope, I've read the Gospels in the original Greek, and that material is plainly there for all to read. We have more copies of the Gospels (and the Acts of the Apostles) in the original Greek than most texts from the ancient world (many of which we do in fact have only in later Latin translations -- but that is NOT the case with the NT).

The idea about "writers, redactors, and interpolators in Rome" is simply a red herring thrown up by those who insist on treating eastern-Mediterranean Jews as anti-Semites because they report negatively on their persecutors.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Nope, I've read the Gospels in the original Greek, and that material is plainly there for all to read. We have more copies of the Gospels (and the Acts of the Apostles) in the original Greek than most texts from the ancient world (many of which we do in fact have only in later Latin translations -- but that is NOT the case with the NT).

Yup. Whoop de do you've read the gospels in Greek. Doesn't matter what language. If you want to assume groups such as the Pharisees were raving lunatics, kniving conspirators involved in a plot to kill their own people that's your problem.

The idea about "writers, redactors, and interpolators in Rome" is simply a red herring thrown up by those who insist on treating eastern-Mediterranean Jews as anti-Semites because they report negatively on their persecutors.

You got it. All except for the red herring part.

[Campion]

Yeah, I'm not sure why you'd blame anybody in Rome. The "writing, redacting, and interpolating" you think you've identified is evident in the Greek and Syriac text as well. Roman Christians didn't have anything to do with that.

IIRC, we have partial Greek manuscripts of Matthew which have been dated before AD 50. They are essentially the same as what we have today.

[Campion]

If you want to assume groups such as the Pharisees were raving lunatics, kniving conspirators involved in a plot to kill their own people that's your problem.

There's plenty of evidence from Jewish sources that some of the Sadduccees, including the Temple Sanhedrin, in the late 2nd temple period were Roman quislings who would have happily killed off a homegrown holy man if they thought he threatened their relationship with their Roman overlords.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

IIRC, we have partial Greek manuscripts of Matthew which have been dated before AD 50. They are essentially the same as what we have today.

Can I see those please?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

There's plenty of evidence from Jewish sources that some of the Sadduccees, including the Temple Sanhedrin, in the late 2nd temple period were Roman quislings who would have happily killed off a homegrown holy man if they thought he threatened their relationship with their Roman overlords.

That's true. Saduccees were part of the corruption of the Temple at the time. My defense is more of the Pharisees.

[TomSmedley]

or, like Mr. Buehrens of "Unitarian First Parish" in Needham, Mass

No point in reading further.

Compare to my experience at a rural Methodist church last Sunday:

There were a few dozen or so people in attendance at the Easter service this year. Turns out ths was the COMBINED membership of two of the churches on this four-point charge. (for the non-methodists among you, that means a four-church circuit, serviced by a single preacher, who preaches at pairs of churches on alternate sundays.)

The young people in attendance all appeared to be descendents of current elderly members, rather than members themselves. Quite a contrast to the congregations I attended some 30 years ago, when each had around 100 in attendance per Sunday, and a lively charge youth group.

The pastor, a young and passionate expositor of the word, is rightly to be honored as a faithful servant of God. A clue as to why the churches he serves are aging out, dying, appeared in the responsive reading. It was Psalm 100, as updated, modernized, and sanitized by editors who were smarter than God. The vile, contemptible, evil, sexist, and degrading pronouns God had chosen to reveal Himself by had all been deleted by those who were wiser than Him, and replaced by the androgynous noun God.

The pastor was stabbed in the back by the hymnal makers and providers of sunday school material. If I want feminist humanism, I can turn on the TV or pick up any magazine at the supemarket checkout counter. Most serious Christians prefer a denomination whose publishers are not ashamed of God, and feel no need to correct Him as though He were an Asperger's Syndrome case, Who needed to have His utterances constantly curbed, corrected, and explained away.

I had red pen in hand, but decided against "correcting" the hymnal folks' "corrections" of God's original message. A sad voice in the back of my head said, "Let the dead bury the dead. The living have work to do." The remaining faithful members, those who are deeply loyal to what the church used to be will pass on within the next few decades. Unless a miracle happens to reverse settled trends at the denominational level, however, a lot of Methodist churches are going to be closing their doors.

[Campion]

Can I see those please?

They're right here in my briefcase, see?

Do a Google on NT dating, Gospel of Matthew, that sort of thing. It was in the news a couple of years ago.

[AnAmericanMother]

You can whoop all you want, but the date and original language of the Gospels mean that Rome had nothing to do with the state of the received text. At the time our first copies of the Gospels and Acts were written, Rome was still very much pagan, and had zero interest in revising or altering the obscure texts of what to them was an annoying cult on the fringes of the Empire. That was my point.

Of course the religious authorities in Jerusalem were conspiring to wipe out Jesus's followers. That isn't disputed by anyone. Their motives, however, had to do with the fear of attracting attention from the occupying authorities, not with race hatred. Caiaphas is quoted in one of the Passion Gospels as stating that it was better that one man should be sacrificed than the entire people. The religious authorities were trying to avoid what happened soon afterwards with the revolt and destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70.

The idea that this had anything to do with "anti-Semitism" as it is currently understood ignores the politics of the eastern Mediterranean at the time.