Posted on 10/25/2006 10:37:55 AM PDT by NYer
Sola scriptura vs nada scriptura. There is no winning that debate.
I love that.
Two millenium of traditionally following the guidelines set forth by our Lord vs. 489 years of following a man-made theory. Makes one wonder why there is even need to debate.
Oh! For HEAVEN'S sake!
Imagine starting a thread
that said Catholics
were basically all
Evangelicals not smart
enough to cut it . . .
Freeper Catholics
would call it a hate thread and
be all over it!
So who needs scripture? I get it I get it.
No, it's the "sola" part that was devised by a disgruntled apostate priest.
I guess I'm offering a side point. I, as a Protestant, was (and now still am) very grateful for those Catholics who had the courage to tell me that I was *wrong* and show me how I was wrong. And Peter Kreeft is a Catholic who does that throughout his writings. (His book Catholic Christianity was a major factor in leading my wife to Catholicism.) Yes, he is at times somewhat abrasive. But I greatly appreciate his willingness to say "this is right, and this is wrong", instead of simply highlighting common ground and praising all the positives that the various Protestant groups bring to the ecumencial table. So, while I probably won't send this article to my fundamentlist family members and friends, I am still grateful for it, because these kinds of articles are (in my opinion) very necessary and important to refute and remove the very common notion (so far as I can tell) in Catholic communities that Vatican II endorsed religious pluralism and mutual respect and understanding as the *final* goal of ecumenicism.
Also, thanks NYer for posting the article!
-A8
-A8
Trading snips is all kinds of fun but it doesn't accomplish a thing.
You don't really think condeming the sale of idulgences amounted to apostacy.
I agree that clarification is important. Please note that one-sided clarification is incomplete. Though I am glad to read it, I am quite sure that it reads differently to me than to you. Nevertheless, there is way too much togetherness and ignorance on the differences between us. That is good for neither of us. We may agree on moral values and even the Trinity...but out differences are serious and should not be overlooked. Catholics who defend their beliefs against Protestantism actually help protestants as much as they help themselves. These issues matter a great deal. So I like the post, though I profoundly disagree with it.
I would say "nice strawman," but it's not nice. It's more like a pitiful, nasty little strawman.
People who believe in "nada scriptura" don't conduct nightly Bible study sessions with their wife and kids, like I do.
Your apologies are accepted.
I did not say the church was a co-redeemer....read my original post.....if you want an example....here ya go...all I did was copy and paste.
THE VIRGIN MARY AS CO-REDEMPTRIX, MEDIATRIX AND ADVOCATE
Current status of Mary:
Although the virgin Mary is rarely mentioned in the Bible, and although Protestant churches consider her to be a relatively minor biblical character, the Roman Catholic Church has long assigned her an elevated status.
The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:
1. Mary is the Mother of God.
2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life.
Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19th and 20th centuries:
3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE.
4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1
In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:
In ancient times: St. Antonius (circa 250 - 350): "All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary."
St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): "[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her."
St. Bonaventure (1221 - 1274): "As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice." 1
1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. 1
1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. 1
1964-NOV-21: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II, and "Solemnly promulgated by Holiness Pope Paul VI" states, in part: "Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" 2
"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix." 3
"...the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator."
"For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source." (Footnotes deleted) 7
1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." 4
1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." 1
1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." 1
Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.
You have to ignore your own bible to really believe that Mary was sinless, a co-redeemer or a perpetual virgin. She and Joseph had kids. She had sex. She probably enjoyed it. She also had bowel movements and she died like everyone else. You can pray to her all you want but she, like your own dead great, great, great grandmother, is pretty much dust......
And yes, if heaven is anything like Catholic mass....send me to hell.
Yeah, that post is real helpful. </s>
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Yes, and in that he is criticizing the Catholic Church, imho.
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Excellent observations. I don't think anyone who reads or participates in these threads can deny the differences between us. Thanks for your honesty.
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