Posted on 01/02/2007 4:33:16 PM PST by narses
From Scripture.
"Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that He might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, In which also coming He preached to those spirits that were in prison: Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water." 1 Peter 3:18-20
The "hell" referred to in the Apostles Creed is most likely Hades or Sheol, the collective abode of the dead, since Heaven had been closed to all mortal souls since the fall, not Gehenna, the state of ungodly souls and eternal damnation.
In addition, you should recall Christ's instructions to Mary Magdalen following His resurrection:
"Jesus saith to her: Do not touch Me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to My Father and to your Father, to My God and your God. Mary Magdalen cometh, and telleth the disciples: I have seen the Lord, and these things He said to me." John 20:17-18
Thus we know from Christ's own words that following His death He did not go to heaven.
Other passages of Scripture which support this teaching are:
"Have the gates of death been opened to thee, and hast thou seen the darksome doors?" Job 38:17
"This way of theirs is a stumblingblock to them: and afterwards they shall delight in their mouth. They are laid in hell like sheep: death shall feed upon them. And the just shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their help shall decay in hell from their glory. But God will redeem my soul from the hand of hell, when he shall receive me." Psalm 49:14-16
"The chariot of God is attended by ten thousands; thousands of them that rejoice: the Lord is among them in Sina, in the holy place. Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive; thou hast received gifts in men. Yea for those also that do not believe, the dwelling of the Lord God. Blessed be the Lord day by day: the God of our salvation will make our journey prosperous to us. Our God is the God of salvation: and of the Lord, of the Lord are the issues from death. But God shall break the heads of his enemies: the hairy crown of them that walk on in their sins." Psalm 68:18-22
"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered Him, saying: Master we would see a sign from Thee. Who answering said to them: An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. For as Jonas was in the whale's belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. The men of Ninive shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas. And behold a greater than Jonas here." Matthew 12:38-41
"Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you, by miracles, and wonders, and signs, which God did by Him, in the midst of you, as you also know: This same being delivered up, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you by the hands of wicked men have crucified and slain. Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the sorrows of hell, as it was impossible that He should be holden by it. For David saith concerning Him: I foresaw the Lord before my face: because He is at my right hand, that I may not be moved. For this my heart hath been glad, and any tongue hath rejoiced: moreover my flesh also shall rest in hope. Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, nor suffer thy Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life: thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Ye men, brethren, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David; that he died, and was buried; and his sepulchre is with us to this present day. Whereas therefore he was a prophet, and knew that God hath sworn to him with an oath, that of the fruit of his loins one should sit upon his throne. Foreseeing this, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ. For neither was he left in hell, neither did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised again, whereof all we are witnesses." Acts 2:22-32
"Or who shall descend into the deep? that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead. " Romans 10:7
"But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ. Wherefore He saith: Ascending on high, He led captivity captive; He gave gifts to men. Now that He ascended, what is it, but because He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended above all the heavens, that He might fill all things." Ephesians 4:7-10
"For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit." 1 Peter 4:6
Therefore, as you should be able to clearly see, the descent of Christ into hell following His death as found in the Apostles Creed, is supported by Sacred Scripture not to mention Sacred Tradition.
We Catholics also recite the Apostles Creed when we pray the rosary, the prayer of the Gospels. You ever pray the rosary?
When we pray the Rosary we say the Apostle's Creed. We saw the Nicene Creed during mass. The Apostle' creed is very ancient and a summary of our faith.
The Catholic Church consists of the living and the dead, the communion of saints. By "invisible" church, Calvinists assert that the saints are unknown. It me this harkens back to the gnostics and their "private" revelations., as opposed to the public doctrine of the Church.
Maybe He did. I don't know. I'm one of those who interprets scripture in a way that envisions hell as an event after the second coming of Christ. I don't think Hell exists right now.
I could be wrong, and maybe I'll burn there for thinking so. I doubt it. It's kind of an obscure doctrinal point.
"Do you believe in hell this minute??"
"I'm not sure, I don't think so, sir"
"Then off you go, loser, believe this!"
One way or the other I'll find out for sure within a few decades. I hope I'm on the side that doesn't get to experience it, no matter how long it's been in existence.
That's too bad because the evidence is there.
However, a question for you. Since we know that Christ didn't go to Heaven upon His death, providing you accept Scripture as the truth, where did He go?
I'd say, nowhere. I think it's possible to just be dead.
Of the magisterial Protestants (Presbyterians, Anglicans, and, more or less, Methodists) we've always accepted the Apostles Creed...in fact, it's the creed most commonly heard in Protestant churches. All the ecumenical creeds are accepted though. Following old practice, the Apostles Creed is typically done in services without Communion, and the Nicene Creed is done when Communion is offered.
Protestants differ from Roman Catholics on the meaning of "holy Catholic Church" giving it the original meaning of simply "holy universal Church" NOT the organnization run only by Rome.
The virgin birth of Jesus is and has been accepted by all orthodox Christians.
Since the bible never teaches it, the virginity of Mary AFTER Jesus birth though, is not assumed. As a matter of fact, since a sex abstinent marriage is called a sin in the New Testament, I for one would assume that unless Joseph was infirm, the blessed and devout Mary must have had normal relations with him, AFTER Jesus was born. The references to Jesus "brothers" in the gospels in context would make that appear the most logical and biblical position.
Also the fact that the early gentile church had serious Greek dualistic influences (gnosticism, Mannaceeism neo-Platonism, etc) against the goodness of the God-created body, would appear to account for the old Roman Catholic (and Greek) tradition of Mary's perpetual virginity (after Jesus birth).
Those dualistic anti-body ideas would also seem to account for why Mary, it was assumed, must have had a sin-free conception (the immaculate conception) herself. Again, since the Bible never mentions this...and, Mary herself calls God her Savior (why do you need a savior if you are sinless?) we see no need to assume Mary had to have a sinless nature, unique to all humanity...., to bear Christ.
Mary's perpetual virginity is not that important, in my opinion, but still I find it interesting that devout Roman Catholics fiercely defend it...as if a normal marriage for the Mother of God after Jesus was born would some how sully her holiness.
Such notions come from the backgrounds of men like Augustine more than the text of scripture and the context of Hebrew culture, in my opinion.
The Nicene Creed is a later more detailed creed, but it is accepted by Protestants just like the Apostles Creed (which the Roman Catholic church also accepts, but rarely says).
Along with what was once called (wrongly) the Athanasian Creed (a great creed, but really long...and misnamed) Christians of all kinds, Protestant Catholic and Orthodox, accept them. In the Nicene Creed, the Greek Orthodox never added (as did the Western churches) a clause called "the Filioque," but that's another story.
For the most part though, the creeds are what we hold in common, not what separates Christians.
It's easy to confuse what in the English world is known as the Nicene Creed (what you translated) and the Apostles Creed (an older simpler creed).
Mainstream Protestants accept both...as do Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox (minus the Filioque clause).
There are some, I'd call rather fringe, Protestants (certain Baptist, Bible, Pentacostal sects, etc.), who are anti-creedal, claiming they only believe the bible. Of course they have their summaries of ideas found in the bible too....which is really what a creed is about.
Classical Protestants though accept the creeds, but like anything other than the Bible, do not regard them as fully authoritative as the Bible itself. Since they are so old and time-tested though, I've never read of an orthodox Protestant who takes issue with the ecumenical creeds.
It's not uncommon to find very old Protestant theological works, and hyymns, and catechisms too based around the order and ideas of the creeds.
I do not think that the Orthodox believe the Creed to be more authoritative than the Bible - it is simply a summary of what is believed by the Church.
Anyhow - have a good day and thanks again for yur explanation. :)
I've read that Eastern Orthodox (strangely, in Western eyes) posit first authority not in scripture, nor in Church tradition at large nor in their patriarchs and hierarchy, but in the early Church Fathers. In the West we think this odd, as the Fathers didn't always agree with one another and some (like Origen, for example)while great on some things, were downright heretical on other certain points (as everyone agrees on Origen). Since the Fathers (basically Church leaders ca. AD 400 and before)had a high view of scripture, so do the Orthodox. Put the current curia of the Roman Catholic Church in place of the Fathers and you have the Roman view of authority. Put the Bible in that first place of authority, and you have traditional classical Protestantism. While classical Protestantism claims to put the Bible first, all (theoretically) have a "high" view of scripture.
However, the East has always been willing to let mystery alone...whereas Western tradition, Roman and Protestant, has been to try to dig it up and understand. Orthodox typically say this is our downfall.
You claim I attacked you. What attack?
Let's see...
After a raucous debate on another thread, you establish this new, unrelated one. At the commencement of the thread (post 1), you refer to the discussion of the prior thread which has nothing to do with the subject of this one - A clear provocation!
Now, you continue in your attempts to bait me to participate in a tit-for-tat argument on this thread. I have refrained from posting on this thread because, as I said at the beginning, I do not acknowledge the authority of extra-biblical doctrines. As such, I could add no value or make any contribution to your topic. (post 22)
Your ongoing baiting is provocative and thereby constitutes a continuing attack.
LET IT GO! Life is too short to obsess in this manner.
I ask again, where did I attack you?
Catholics say the Apostle's Creed every time they say the rosary or the Divine Mercy chaplet...not rare...
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