Posted on 07/25/2009 3:51:54 PM PDT by NYer
The example of binding and loosing given by Christ in the same post has no mention of man forgiving sins against God, for God. Only that you have to forgive to be forgiven by God when you repent and ask.
Again I respectfully ask; "Would you please supply evidence of where Jesus taught man could forgive sins against God, for God? Thanks, BVB
I might also point out that the text you posted again claims that the power of forgiving sins was given by Jesus to the apostles, but the verse itself in John 20, says that the disciples were assembled when this commission was given, it does not say the apostles were the only ones present.
You answered
As soon as Jesus rose from the dead and earned salvation for us, he brought his apostles a new gift. After speaking peace to them, he said, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21). Just as Jesus was sent by the Father to reconcile the world to God, Jesus sent the apostles to continue his mission.
Jesus then breathed on the apostles. This is a verse that is often passed over, but it has extraordinary significance because it is only the second time in all of Scripture where God breathes on anyone. The other instance was at the moment of creation, when God breathed his own life into the nostrils of Adam. This should tell us that something of great importance is taking place. Upon doing this, Jesus said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:22–23).
Notice that Jesus is not simply commissioning the apostles to preach about God’s forgiveness. He is not saying, "Go tell everyone that when God forgives men’s sins, they’re forgiven." In using the second person plural you, Jesus is telling his apostles that by the power of the Holy Spirit he has given them the power to forgive and retain the sins of men. Having the power to forgive and to retain sins implies that the apostle knows what a person’s sins are, which in turn implies oral confession. Otherwise, how is the apostle to know what to retain or forgive?
You ignore Jn 20: 19-20 which is mentioned in my post 8 and Boogieman's post and your reply. It states that the disciples were gathered. No mention that is was just the apostles.
Every place I highlighted your use of the word apostle in your post, it should read disciples. If you did, it would make your supposition that He brought His apostles a special gift of the Holy Spirit to be unsupported. The same with binding and loosing and forgiving sins.
The Holy Spirit, the power to bind and loose and to forgive sin was given to all disciples in that setting, including us. BVB
If there are a million people in a room and I give you a gift, have the others also received the gift? John 20 initiates our understanding of what transpired. A more thorough reading of scripture expands this understanding. St. Paul said to his disciple Timothy: "I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands" (2 Tim 1:6), and "If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task" (1 Tim 3:1). To Titus he said: "This is why I left you in Crete, that you amend what was defective, and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you" (Titus 1:5).
The Holy Spirit, the power to bind and loose and to forgive sin was given to all disciples in that setting, including us.
Christ told the apostles to follow his example: "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21). Just as the apostles were to carry Christ’s message to the whole world, so they were to carry his forgiveness: "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18).
The ministerial priesthood differs in essence from the common priesthood of the faithful because it confers a sacred power for the service of the faithful. The ordained ministers exercise their service for the People of God by teaching (munus docendi), divine worship (munus liturgicum) and pastoral governance (munus regendi). The power to forgive sins implies the obligation of going to confession because as sins are usually committed secretly, the priest could never know what sins to forgive and what not to forgive, unless the sins committed were made known to him by the persons guilty of them.
If there are a million people in a room and I give you a gift, have the others also received the gift? John 20 initiates our understanding of what transpired. A more thorough reading of scripture expands this understanding. St. Paul said to his disciple Timothy: "I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands" (2 Tim 1:6), and "If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task" (1 Tim 3:1). To Titus he said: "This is why I left you in Crete, that you amend what was defective, and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you" (Titus 1:5).
You asked; "If there are a million people in a room and I give you a gift, have the others also received the gift?
No, you only gave it to me. This gift was for all who were in the room. The disciples. I am a disciple so the gift is for me as well. It is yours as well if you accept it.
The Holy Spirit, the power to bind and loose and to forgive sin was given to all disciples in that setting, including us.
Christ told the apostles to follow his example: "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21). Just as the apostles were to carry Christ’s message to the whole world, so they were to carry his forgiveness: "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18).
Once again you are saying that this was just for the apostles. No where does it state that. It says the room was filled with disciples. All in the room received what Christ gave just like when the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. Everyone in the room was filled with the Spirit. Not just the apostles who were there.
The ministerial priesthood differs in essence from the common priesthood of the faithful because it confers a sacred power for the service of the faithful. The ordained ministers exercise their service for the People of God by teaching (munus docendi), divine worship (munus liturgicum) and pastoral governance (munus regendi). The power to forgive sins implies the obligation of going to confession because as sins are usually committed secretly, the priest could never know what sins to forgive and what not to forgive, unless the sins committed were made known to him by the persons guilty of them.
You state; "The power to forgive sins implies the obligation of going to confession because as sins are usually committed secretly, the priest could never know what sins to forgive and what not to forgive, unless the sins committed were made known to him by the persons guilty of them."
That statement has no meaning. Did you read what I posted to you earlier about binding and loosing and the forgiveness of sins. There is no bases for men to forgive other man's sins against God. Only God can forgive sins committed against Him. Thankfully He did so through His Son's finished work.
The rest of your statement shows how ridiculous the concept of the confessional is. The Church claims that it has this responsibility because the Holy Spirit guides her. If that was the case, you would not have to confess, the Holy Spirit would enlighten the priests as it did the apostles and the other Spirit filled individuals in the early church.
My favorite evidence of that is the rite of exorcism. Multiple psychologist have to determine whether a person is possessed before an exorcism can be approved.
Maybe that is why so many possessed priests were allowed to do their damage. I am not saying that to condemn the church as much as how to not let it happen again. To many priest were sent to doctors instead of exorcists or jail. You would have to be possessed to do what some of them did.
As I asked another poster; "Please show me where God explicitly says man can forgive sins against Him, For Him."
BVB
I contend that there is no provision or need for a man to forgive sins committed against God for God and determine a punishment/penitence for those sins. Only God can do that. Thankfully He has through the finished work of His Son!
I can and must forgive sins committed against me by others before God can forgive me of my repented sins.
I cannot forgive a sin perpetrated against you or another. You or the other individual must do that for your/their forgiveness from God.
The Holy Spirit will guide us in those pursuits if we ask.....BVB
John 20:19-23
You’re still wrong, as is the post from which you cut and pasted that word salad.
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