Why Does God Allow Christians to Suffer?

I'm re-reading Augustine's _City of God_, and this came up right away:

For God's providence constantly uses war to correct and chasten the corrupt morals of mankind, as it also uses such afflictions to train men in a righteous and laudable way of life, removing to a better state those whose life is approved, or else keeping them in this world for further service.

I am also reminded of Thomas Vincent's _God's Terrible Voice in the City_, wherein Vincent speaks of the terrible judgements "by which God speaks unto men."

However, since you are asking why God allows Christians to suffer, perhaps the points I am raising here are too general. If so, I apologize.

I'm not trying to be hurtful, but what is there to be afraid of? Penance is usually saying some prayers after confession, it's not like you're going to be flogged for your sins. All sin is sin - there is only one payment for any sin. The "wages of sin is death" - not prayers, not receiving communion (which is meant to be done in remembrance of Christ's sacrifice), not good works, not anything but DEATH. Jesus paid the price for our sins by his death in our place. Salvation is God's gift of grace (undeserved mercy).

I assumed you meant St. Pius X was incorrect in saying the "surest, easiest, shortest" way to heaven was through the Eucharist, yet he was a saint so Catholics believe his quote was correct, and I was trying to display what I felt he meant with his words. Penance (in the Catholic Church) follows Reconciliation and you had talked of Reconciliation being imperative to receiving the Eucharist with grace, when, in fact, it is not as long as you have not committed mortal sins since your last Confession. This isn't to say frequent Confession should be discouraged in any way; some is good (and necessary!), more is better.:)

As far as "good works" go, I covered that somewhat here in comment #17.

And Christ through the Most Holy Eucharist is not taken "in remembrance of Christ's sacrifice," but, in fact, IS Christ's sacrifice via His Most Precious Body.

And I think only the haughty do not fear Confession/Penance. Even my brother-in-law, one of the most orthodox priests around, initially said he too, found Confession tough to do. It's supposed to be tough, so that after you complete your Confession, you go and "sin no more."

(Were you ever a member of the Catholic Church?)

“With out free will we would be robots, and God would be a cosmic rapist forcing his love upon us.”

So saying that “God would be a cosmic rapist” is similar to old testament prophecy? Again I will say, it shows the depravity of man to make such a sick analogy. It also demonstrates a lack of respect for and fear of God.

Interesting question in light of the Akedah, wherein Abraham would have sacrificed his son Issac but for Divine intervention.

Furthermore, why would’ve God allowed the blood sacrifice of Jesus, yet have succesive generations of Christians putting the end to arguably somehat similar sacrifice and cannibalism around the world?

Note: I think I generally understand and appreciate the answers. But I’ve been dying to put it out here in light of the past week’s Torah section which includes the Akedah.

Have at it, and me if you so wish.

So saying that “God would be a cosmic rapist” is similar to old testament prophecy? Again I will say, it shows the depravity of man to make such a sick analogy. It also demonstrates a lack of respect for and fear of God.

I disagree as would be expected. I may live in a politically correct world, but I will not temper the words I use for my purposes of descriptions, no more than the writers and Prophets of old would. If such use of language was good enough 2600 years ago than it is good enough to use now also.

Allow me to give you a lesson in the original transcripts of Scripture. What I am presenting to you is a time when Isaiah compared our righteousness to a woman's used menstrual rag. I guess you will find this terrible and crass for a Christian to use also, but you need to have your eyes opened to the truth. You will no doubt, think that if I used such language as Isaiah did, in my sermons, that I am not a true man of god. Well here is the lesson.

In the New American Standard Bible with concordance numbers, Isaiah 64:6 says this about that which we think is our righteousness,

Isa 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy(5713c) garment(899b); And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

So the Hebrew word translated into filthy here was from the Hebrew word, H5713c - עדּה or iddah. Looking at the accompanying concordance we see that the Hebrew word iddah was an unused word at the time. Unused by the masses but still used by religious Prophets and Religious scribes. It was not a word you used in public and so the people would not use the word in public. the more things change the more they same the same. Like you, the people of the time thought is unbecoming of a man who believed and lived for God, but Isaiah thought differently. So continuing in your lesson, the word translates into - menstruation. However, the translators used a word that was common to the public discourse and used filthy instead of menstruation. They did this because they know that Christians like you cannot fathom using such language when speaking of God and reading the Words the Holy Spirit inspired such Prophets as Isiah to use.

Now we have the word garment, and the Hebrew word it comes from is H899b - בּגד or beged. Looking at the accompanying concordance we see that the Hebrew word beged means a few things depending on the context. So we have various words to chose from such as, a garment as used in this context because of what the word proceeding it was and what Isaiah was talking about. There are also such words as, covering, cloth, clothes, clothing, garment, garments, lap, robes, saddle cloths, and wardrobe. You can see no other word would fit the context it was used in here.

So as you can see, Isaiah who was a man called by God usex the word God wanted him to use, but the word that he used was uncommon in normal discourse, but God thought is to be appropriate in the analogy. So yes you are wrong in thinking, that using the phrase cosmic rape to describe what would happen if God forced His love upon us, is you put it, demonstrating lack of respect for and fear of God”. If you need more examples I can find dozens of them.

Lesson over, now you assignment is to learn Hebrew and Greek, so you can then read the Scriptures in the way it was originally written and then you will then see that we live in a pc world where even Christians are afraid to tell it the way God did, because the analogy stands and as I said I will not change using it when I consider it appropriate.

“Allow me to give you a lesson in the original transcripts of Scripture.”

Yes oh learned one, please school me.

“What I am presenting to you is a time when Isaiah compared our righteousness to a woman’s used menstrual rag.”

As opposed to your comparing the workings of God in salvation to “cosmic rape”.

“You will no doubt, think that if I used such language as Isaiah did, in my sermons, that I am not a true man of god.”

If your “sermons” are as as disgusting as your writings here seem to indicate, I fear for your church. Man’s righteous deeds are indeed as filthy as menstrual rags, but God is in no way a “cosmic rapist” and the sick, twisted mind that could conceive of such a concept is not fit for “man of God”.

As usual there is a Scripture passage that applies here:

“For consider your calling, brothers; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God CHOSE what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God CHOSE what is weak in the world to shame the strong;” - 1 Corinthians 1:26-27

I readily admit that you are more clever and wise than I. I am happy to be thought a fool by the world.

Yes He does test and chasten those He loves. This is what the Word says about Jesus and His suffering.

Hebrews 5:6-10
6 As He also says in another place: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek";

7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,

8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. (emphasis mine)

9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

10 called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek,"

Even our Lord Yahshua leaned obedience through His suffering. Our suffering is not new to Him.

Hebrews 4:13-16
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. (emphasis mine)

16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

So I take it, this means you probably do not want to be on my article ping list then, huh?

Why is it every time there is some 'act' of violence, everybody wants God to be held to account?

You give God credit for when things go good, don't you?

You give God credit for when things go good, don't you?

I give the Heavenly Father, thanksgiving which to my mind is different than 'credit', in what I perceive to be good times as well as the 'bad' times. Because I do not always see clearly in the moment what might appear to me a 'good' or a 'bad' thing.

And to be clear, I in NO way am suggesting that what took place at Ft. Hood to be any part of 'good'. But the majority of the people in this nation elected liberals to be in charge while ignoring who liberals are and who they have always been. Destroyers of all things 'good'.

Why is it every time there is some 'act' of violence, everybody wants God to be held to account?

It’s the folly of man that he thinks that suffering is bad.
Mat 10:37-39
(37) He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
(38) And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.
(39) He who finds his life shall lose it. And he who loses his life for My sake shall find it.

It’s the folly of man that he thinks that suffering is bad. Mat 10:37-39 (37) He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. (38) And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. (39) He who finds his life shall lose it. And he who loses his life for My sake shall find it.

I have no argument against your post. I will note that the slaughter that took place caused 'suffering' that was, is, and will always be 'bad' in the Heavenly Father's eyes. These people that got gunned down were 'serving' Him in protecting US. And due to dereliction of duty the chain of command allowed a killer in our 'servants' midst.

Why is it every time there is some 'act' of violence, everybody wants God to be held to account?

When some make the claim that God is omnipotent and actively controls everything, that is the logical conclusion. This is also the reason he gets the credit for good things. If you're the boss then you should get both the credit and the blame.

Take the Hudson pilot Sully a while back, so many people saying God put a man with exactly that expertise (glider pilot) in the cockpit to save those people. It's a Miracle! Personally, I think they just got lucky, as opposed to the passengers a few weeks later who had a crew that didn't know how to fly in icy conditions.

If a person claims God put Sully in the Hudson plane to save those passengers, then to be consistent he has to claim God put those less-talented pilots in the other plane in order to kill the other passengers. God doesn't sound quite so benevolent when the logic is applied equally.

People who believe God has a total hands-off approach (free will) don't have this problem.

When some make the claim that God is omnipotent and actively controls everything, that is the logical conclusion. This is also the reason he gets the credit for good things. If you're the boss then you should get both the credit and the blame. Take the Hudson pilot Sully a while back, so many people saying God put a man with exactly that expertise (glider pilot) in the cockpit to save those people. It's a Miracle! Personally, I think they just got lucky, as opposed to the passengers a few weeks later who had a crew that didn't know how to fly in icy conditions. If a person claims God put Sully in the Hudson plane to save those passengers, then to be consistent he has to claim God put those less-talented pilots in the other plane in order to kill the other passengers. God doesn't sound quite so benevolent when the logic is applied equally. People who believe God has a total hands-off approach (free will) don't have this problem.

I won't disagree the overwhelming majority of peoples upon this earth right now came here with 'free will'. However, all down through the generations we can read about some who were 'elected' to be where they were when they were placed upon this earth. Paul wrote quite extensively about those predestined before the foundation of this flesh age, and he better than any other demonstrated that not all are born into flesh bodies with free will.

And since we are told that God hardened Pharaoh's heart that indicates unless one is suppose to know no one can categorically say the Heavenly Father did or did not control any single event. I would say that the pilot Sully and his passengers would know better than any one in flesh if their survival was due to 'luck', 'skill', or Heavenly granted soft landing.