Posted on 03/03/2010 10:14:34 AM PST by NYer
Outstanding! My late, dear Father-in-Law was a Permanent Deacon, as is my brother-in-law, my older sister's husband. They were both in the first Permanent Deacon class for the Diocese of Jackson, MS.
I do believe that those Roman Catholics who follow Christ are saved. Of course! And so, as a Christ-follower myself, I enjoy fellowship with them.
But, sadly, many Roman Catholics are more into their Roman faith, or simply Roman Catholics by name (like many Democrat politicians) ... and many are very into their anti-”Protestant” convictions ... and fellowship with them is very difficult.
If only they would exalt Christ above all, we would enjoy the fellowship of our “one faith.”
TheStickman — I don’t have a problem with Roman Catholics. I do believe you can be both Roman Catholic and enjoy relationship with Christ. It’s the Roman Catholics who reject simple Christ-followers that distress me.
Regarding the supposed perpetual virginity of Mary, you wrote:
Frankly a relatively minor issue. Scripture talks of kinsmen.
So are you saying the verses that speak of Jesus brothers are NOT conceived in and delivered by Mary?
Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
As for opposing his Church, I don’t see why that would be to your credit.
Actually, I just oppose the false teachings of the Catholic church, and they are many.
You posted:
Pope Innocent said exactly what I said — there is one universal church - and you have to be saved by her.
Sorry, I wasn’t saved by the church.
Those promoting the Roman Catholic church here remind me of someone seeing a parade march by, and recognizing it as a good thing, running up to the front of the parade and acting like they originated the idea and have sole control of its direction.
“2. Salvation: The Roman Catholic Church teaches that salvation is by baptismal regeneration and is maintained through the Catholic sacraments unless a willful act of sin is committed that breaks the state of sanctifying grace.”
Interesting all the unnecessary layers the Catholic church adds to the word of God.
So do you believe that marriage, confession, the mass, and baptism are all contrary to Christ’s teachings?
Of course not.
But my marriage is valid even if not performed in a Catholic church by a Catholic priest.
My confession to God, or my fellow man requires no Catholic priest to be valid.
The Catholic mass is a severely twisted caricature of the supper Jesus instituted, and not necessary for obedience to Christ, or to receiving His body and blood by faith.
By the way, do you believe if a Catholic were to spit out the host at mass that it would be a bloody mass of flesh, the “actual” body of Christ, as the nuns used to teach at Catholic schools? Do you contend that the host turns into the literal flesh of Jesus and the wine into His actual blood?
I do not need to be baptised by a Catholic to obey Jesus, and don’t believe in baptizing the dead either (as some have proposed, saying that baptism is absolutely essential to salvation).
By the way, the Bible teaches that baptism is for believers, not for the children of believers, or for “pre-believers” so I don’t hold with infant baptism.
While it is God who judges the heart, I have some major disagreements with the Catholic teachings. I do believe there are many within its rank and file who are “born again,” but, haven’t grown beyond their point of salvation.
The scripture where Jesus said, “upon this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail,” is extremely twisted in the Catholic doctrine. This is twisted to focus upon Peter, who when asked by Jesus, “Who do men say that I am?” Peter answered, “thou art Christ, the Son of the Living God.” To which Jesus blessed Peter because this revelation was revealed to him, not by flesh and blood, but, by the Spirit of God. It had nothing to do with the church being founded upon Peter, but, upon the truth that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God.
Mary, nor any other human who walked on this earth is an intercessor between us and God. The Bible clearly teaches that there is ONE mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ. Jesus stands at the right hand of the Father to make intercession for us.
Jesus also taught to call no man “Father,” as we have but one Father in heaven.
This is a very deep subject, but, the Word can easily be twisted, and, yes, even Protestant denominations have taken scripture out of context.
When we are baptized, we are baptized into the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This, is done after one’s salvation and repentance. Its an outward evidence of an inward work.
The true church is comprised of all born-again believers in Jesus Christ, not any particular denomination. And, yes, it is universal, but, not under a man-made umbrella or sect. The true church is a spiritual one.
There is no such place as purgatory. Jesus told the thief on the cross, “Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Paul said to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord.” The Bible teaches that it is appointed once for man to die, then after that - the judgment.
I have no hatred for the Catholics. I do believe they are misguided in their teachings. In fact, the Jews comprised the first church, which was formed on the Day of Pentecost.
“The Catholic mass is a severely twisted caricature.”
What’s twisted about it? “He broke the bread and gave it to his disciples, and said, ‘this is my body which is given up for you.’ “
“By the way, do you believe if a Catholic were to spit out the host at mass that it would be a bloody mass of flesh, the “actual” body of Christ, as the nuns used to teach at Catholic schools? Do you contend that the host turns into the literal flesh of Jesus and the wine into His actual blood?”
Yes, and I also believe what Christ said, “He who does not eat of my flesh and drink of my blood has no life in him.”
“I do not need to be baptised by a Catholic to obey Jesus, and don’t believe in baptizing the dead either (as some have proposed, saying that baptism is absolutely essential to salvation).”
As who have proposed? Catholics?
“By the way, the Bible teaches that baptism is for believers, not for the children of believers, or for “pre-believers” so I don’t hold with infant baptism.”
Do you believe that those who have been baptised as infants ought to be re-baptised?
“The scripture where Jesus said, “upon this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail,” is extremely twisted in the Catholic doctrine. This is twisted to focus upon Peter.”
Well here’s what I don’t get. Why do people leave out the fact that Christ gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, the power to bind and loose? The doctrine isn’t twisted at all, it’s word for word what is actually there.
“Mary, nor any other human who walked on this earth is an intercessor between us and God. The Bible clearly teaches that there is ONE mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ. Jesus stands at the right hand of the Father to make intercession for us.”
Sigh.
Do you pray for your brothers and sisters? You are making an intercession for them to God himself. The same is no different then with Mary and the Saints in heaven. Any of them can pray for us as well, as we are told to pray for one another.
“Jesus also taught to call no man “Father,” as we have but one Father in heaven.”
“But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all students. And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father, the one in Heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Messiah. The great among you will be your servant. [[Nor are you to be called pastors for you have one Shepherd]]
“All who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted.”
“And, yes, it is universal, but, not under a man-made umbrella or sect.”
The Catholic church was founded by Christ. It is not man-made.
“There is no such place as purgatory. Jesus told the thief on the cross, ‘Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.’ Paul said to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord.” The Bible teaches that it is appointed once for man to die, then after that - the judgment.”
Yet, Luther taught that we remain asleep awaiting judgment.
And Paul insists on teaching us that our works will be tested with fire. Purgatory exists, for our sins that we have committed and not confessed must be burned away from us before we are sanctified and brought to our Father in heaven.
“In fact, the Jews comprised the first church, which was formed on the Day of Pentecost.”
Yes, the same church that is the Catholic church today.
“So are you saying the verses that speak of Jesus brothers are NOT conceived in and delivered by Mary?”
I’m saying they refer to his kinsmen.
adelphoi is the greek term that is used in this verse. It means brethren/kinsmen.
That’s cool. I’ve had excellent experiences with Permanent Deacons, although they all seem to shake their heads in disbelief at me. “Who is this batty woman with all the bizarre children?”
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I keep hearing/reading about Catholics who “reject” non-Catholic believers in Christ yet I have yet to observe such people. I would also suggest any Catholic who “rejects” any person is not living in accordance with the Teachings of the Church.
As a Roman Catholic, my faith in Christ and His Church is paramount. There is no room for being ‘anti-protestant’ nor is such a thing being taught in any parish I have ever been a part of.
Your assertion that Roman Catholics do not exalt Christ “above all”, based on my personal experience is false. Jesus Christ is the focus of every Mass.
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through Him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
He came down from heaven,
by the Power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
May the Peace of Christ be with you always :)
If there’s one thing I despise, it’s neener-neener-so-and-so-became-a-Catholic. Or any religion, but it seems Catholics do it the most. Reflect on the fact that the entire planet could change religions and that wouldn’t make one faith truer than another.
Christ established the Catholic Church. It's the only church that has actually existed all the way back to when He gave the Keys to Peter at Caesarea Philippi. That's why we accept the leadership of the Church -- they have the Keys which Christ gave to Peter, and Peter handed down to his successors. This simple fact is recognized not only in Acts, but also in all the writings of the early church fathers. It was a hierarchical organization from the beginning.
It's not so much a parade as it is an army on the march -- an army led by Christ and the officers He appointed. I recognize that authority, and I prefer to march with them. "Like a mighty army moves the Church of God/ Brothers, we are treading, where the saints have trod."
I have learned from sad experience what it is like to wander around with a little ragtag band of guerrillas, without leadership and without organization -- or, worse, with bad leadership. Nobody's questioning the foot soldiers' support of Christ or Christianity -- it's just that without a final authority, and with dozens or hundreds of self-appointed interpreters heading off in all directions "because the Holy Spirit led me", chaos ensues.
In Koine Greek (and also in Aramaic, though I do not know that myself but only from hearsay), the term "brothers" or adelfoi is used not only for an actual blood brother but for any male relative, of whatever degree (as Abraham and Lot, who are referred to in the LXX as brothers even though they weren't), and also for ones' associates - such as the disciples. Note the congruence between the names listed in Matthew 13:55 and those of the disciples. There's also the possibility that Joseph had children from an earlier marriage, or nephews who would also be referred to as brothers.
And if the Virgin Mary had other, subsequent children, there would be no reason for Christ to turn to John from the cross and say, "behold your mother," or for John to take her into his home from that day.
And Acts is full of references to "brethren" - including Acts 1:15 -- where there are 120 of them. But in the KJV it's "disciples", not "brethren" -- and the word in some Greek texts (Byzantine and Textus Receptus) is not adelfoi but maqhths = pupil or disciple.
When everybody spoke Greek, nobody had a problem understanding this. Athanasius, Epiphanius, Jerome, Augustine, Cyril of Alexandria, even Luther, Calvin and Zwingli, didn't think the verse in Matthew was some kind of proof text. They all acknowledged that Mary was ever-virgin. Only recently, when folks (especially Americans who often speak no other language) began believing that the English Bible was the norm and their own linguistic assumptions are valid not only for Greek but for 17th century English, did this difficulty suddenly crop up.
Pentecostal minister Alex Jones storyPastor and Flock Convert to Catholicism
Two peas in a pod. More similar than you'd probably care to acknowledge.
***You wrote: Only the Catholic Church can trace its heritage all the way back to its founder, Jesus Christ.
Really? Please elaborate.***
“Thou are Peter, and upon this rock I build my church.”
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