Posted on 05/28/2013 1:21:20 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
Take note of “hardness and impenitent (or unrepentant) heart” in the Romans verse; and this is addressing members of the church. This repentance so mentioned has to be granted, per Acts 11:18; notice that the ones here addressed have indeed been granted said repentance and subsequently turned away from it.
As for John 3:36, how many people did the Son reach during his lifetime as a human? It can’t be the period yet where all men come to the knowledge of the truth; we wouldn’t have religious divisions entrenched, nor Satan’s ongoing deception.
This goes back to Edwards’ “abhor(rence)” presumption. Jesus would not have died for those he abhors (He died for all mankind), and if He says that all men are to be saved (except those that persist in rebellion), then He means it.
You can be “confronted with the truth” in not only words but also miraculous signs and still not understand it due to deception. By contrast, how can one that gets the news directly from the Son of God in His glory persist in rebellion?
Remember the prophecy of Isaiah 6:9. That blindness will not persist forever.
Thank you for your contributions in this thread. God bless!
It doesn’t sound like it’ll illicit joy:
Isa 66:23-24 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. (24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
It says, they shall be “an abhorring unto all flesh.”
I’ve actually seen attacks on Jonathan Edwards in scholarly papers on totally alien topics. For example, a woman in a literary analysis of Edgar Allan Poe’s The Cask of Amontillado saw in the story a complicated attack on the God of Jonathan Edwards. I had meant to write a reply, but never got around to it.
No, he is addressing the Jew who judges sinners but thinks he is exempt because he has the law. Paul is speaking about the Jewish law in these passages...not about those who have been redeemed.
Paul is saying that every single Jews has also broken the law so is in as much need of a Savior as the Gentile sinner. If they continue in pride and do not repent of their sin just as Gentiles must they are under wrath as much as the pagan gentile sinner.
notice that the ones here addressed have indeed been granted said repentance and subsequently turned away from it
No, the man in Romans is still unrepentant. In v. 12 we see he is addressing sinners in general...Jew and Gentile. Neither have any benefit because all humans have sinned.
God bless you also!
Paul says "what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, EVER SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD, in the the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."
All already have been exposed to God's truth. Thus, he already considers sinners without excuse.
Jonathan Edwards was the inspiration for Samuel Hopkins (one of the most aggressive antislavery preachers of the colonial era, hence the hatred from Confederates) and Hopkins' disciple Nathaniel Taylor was the guy who built the framework for post Civil War liberal Calvinism.
What does it come down to? Edwards was a strict conservative (by the standards of Protestantism, which is essentially a liberal mindset) but was very focused on individual salvation/redemption.
Today most Protestants think that there was never anything but radical individualism (just Jesus and I, all else is a distraction) in their tradition.
But Edwards is the American father of that individualism.
And once individualism is raised to the status of a first principle, then the individual becomes the measure of all that is right.
That can’t be true, otherwise the obfuscation via parables has no purpose. The Bible plainly says that the truth of God has to be spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14); and we certainly have not reached the time when the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh, otherwise there wouldn’t be other religions.
“The Bible plainly says that the truth of God has to be spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14); and we certainly have not reached the time when the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh, otherwise there wouldn’t be other religions.”
The prophecy you are referring to, which is in Joel, was fulfilled at the time of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit fell upon the Apostles (and, from thenceforth, would fall on Jew and Gentile, bond and free, male and female alike). Peter asserts that this is the case here:
Act 2:14-17 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: (15) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. (16) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; (17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
There is no such thing as a universal salvation, as made clear in the other verses already posted by myself and others. Therefore, Peter understands “all flesh” to refer to all the different types of people, and not in the sense that you use it.
The only people I recall he berated were the Oharisees, who thought they were super holy, not sinners who knew they were sinners.
By the time 'hell' is created there will not be any doubt of the sheep from the goats. And when that day arrives those that decide they have no love of and for the Creator made their own choice. Thus far to date only the devil and a numbered followers have been condemned to eternal death. And there is not going to be this screeching and moans from the pit.
How can Joel's prophecy be fulfilled when He was told by God to write in the last days, God would pour out His Spirit upon all flesh? Oh and imagine it 'your sons and daughters shall prophesy' ... Imagine that God said daughters would prophesy...
So long as we are in flesh bodies the 'real' Christ has not returned for His harvest. The fake or instead of Christ gets tossed out of heaven by Michael first. That is the great tribulation that has not been before that Christ described in Matthew 24. Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 profile the anti-Christ or instead of Christ.
“How can Joel’s prophecy be fulfilled...”
It’s not how CAN it be fulfilled, it’s how it IS fulfilled:
“But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel... I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh.”
So there’s no quibbling with it or disagreeing with Peter here. It’s purely a fact that Peter asserts that the miracles the Jews were then witnessing was God “pouring out His spirit upon all flesh,” beginning with the first believers, and soon to be on all believers from thenceforth from every tribe.
If the intention was universal salvation, then there would be no one in hell, and every person would have been moved to believe in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. But, instead, what actually happened, was the pouring out of the spirit on both Jews and Gentiles, men and women, bond and free alike, on those who believe.
” Imagine that God said daughters would prophesy...”
Here’s some daughter’s who prophecy:
Act_21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
“in the last days,”
The last days referenced by Peter is that of the complete destruction of Jerusalem which occurred in 70AD. Josephus records many signs and wonders which happened just before the fatal event, followed by a tribulation so bad that the Jews even took part in cannibalism within the city walls. Some 2 or 3 million people died all at once, not counting those killed elsewhere, and the entire people scattered across the world. This desolation was set to continue until “the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled,” which, considering the present divided state of Israel, seems to be going forward even to this day.
Whatever the case, Peter makes it clear that the “pouring out of the spirit” began at the moment he declared it.
Peter quoted Joel who said Joel 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God .......
Peter was not talking about 70 AD or Josephus, he was quoting Joel.
“Peter was not talking about 70 AD or Josephus, he was quoting Joel.”
He was quoting Joel in reference to what they were now witnessing. How do you respond to the words of Peter which says exactly that? The Jews thought they were drunk because they were all speaking in foreign languages. Peter denies that they are drunk, but says “this is that which was spoken of by the Prophet Joel,” and then he applies the prophecy, including the “pouring out of my spirit on all flesh,” to what was occurring right then. You can’t just say he was quoting Joel for no particular reason, and wasn’t explaining anything at all.
Peter made Joel's prophecy part of the so called New Testament and what Joel was told to write down has not yet happened. 70 AD is not the last days.
The unpardonable sin is if one/anyone refuses to allow the Holy Spirit (without premeditation) to speak through them Mark 13:11 has Christ Himself explaining what will be the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, an example took place on Pentecost day as second witness to Joel's prophecy.
Romans 11:4 describes those that will be delivered up to witness and when these do witness the Holy Spirit will be poured out upon all flesh.
“Mark 13:11 has Christ Himself explaining what will be the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, an example took place on Pentecost day as second witness to Joel’s prophecy.”
I’m not really sure what you’re actually talking about, or what it is you are hoping to demonstrate. Keep in mind, I am speaking of what Peter directly said was being fulfilled, specifically in reference to the “pouring out” of the Spirit “on all flesh.” I am arguing that this began as Peter spoke it, which is then fulfilled everytime the Spirit falls on people, regardless of race or gender. (Thus, “all people” refers to this concept, not that God is predicting Universalism.) You didn’t actually acknowledge that Peter does indeed apply the prophecy to what was then happening. The only thing that can really be debated on is what is the meaning of “last days,” but that was not the main portion of my point, which was to refute the other fellow who was trying to make a Universalist argument out of the phrase “pouring out on all flesh.”
So, if you are trying to argue for a particular eschatological system, I am not familiar with it, and I’m not particularly concerned with it.
You cite this as a demonstration of what really is the pouring out of the spirit:
Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
In which case, this has certainly been exampled already by the Apostles themselves. You said earlier “even on the daughters,” and that was fulfilled too. In fact, everything in Joel’s prophecy was rightfully fulfilled in terms of the spiritual gifts that were then to come to the church.
To return to eschatology, which is not my main point, Joel declares that this would happen before the “great and terrible day of the Lord.” And certainly the lines “the last days” does not automatically mean the last days of the entire world. It can just as easily mean the last days of the Jewish Old Testament system. Hence why Christ, when replying to the dual question of when shall the end be, and when shall the end of Jerusalem be, tells us that there would be those who were yet alive who would see these calamities come.
This certainly allows, at the very least, for the destruction of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple to stand as a fulfillment of Christ’s immediate words, as well as serve as a type of an even greater desolation to occur at the end of time.
Whatever the case, these ideas were not the main part of my point, which was merely to refute the universalist’s abuse of Joel’s prophecy.
“The unpardonable sin is if one/anyone refuses to allow the Holy Spirit (without premeditation) to speak through them”
And one last thing. This simply has no basis in the scripture. The unpardonable sin, which I wasn’t even talking about or mentioning, was in the direct context of the Pharisees calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of the devil. Hence, a blasphemy that calls the direct witness of the miracles of God the work of Satan.
“Romans 11:4 describes those that will be delivered up to witness and when these do witness the Holy Spirit will be poured out upon all flesh.”
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Romans 11:4 does no such thing, since Romans 11:4 is just an example Paul was using to establish his principles on election in direct reference to the Jews not being totally cast off.
Rom 11:2-6 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, (3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. (4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. (5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
It’s not a prediction of some future event of 7,000 people. Unless, perhaps, you are trying to reference the 144,000 in Revelation. But Romans 11:4 has no connection with that vision.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.