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How Do we Know the Gospels are Historical?
http://www.strangenotions.com ^ | Fr. Dwight Longenecker

Posted on 03/11/2014 6:32:04 PM PDT by NKP_Vet

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To: NKP_Vet
One of the difficult aspects for modern people to understand is just what kind of document the gospels are. Everyone can admit that they are not written as purely historical documents, but neither are they simply fabulous fables, myths, or fairy tales.

Ask the Catholics...

41 posted on 03/12/2014 4:07:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: NKP_Vet
One of the difficult aspects for modern people to understand is just what kind of document the newspapers of America. Everyone can admit that they are not written as purely historical documents, but neither are they simply fabulous fables, myths, or fairy tales.
42 posted on 03/12/2014 4:09:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: TBP
They’re not. They’re pseudepigraphic and they’re not history — they’re inspirational works pitched to specific audiences.
They’re based on the oral tradition, which tends to be a long game of telephone, as it gets distorted through being passed along from one source to another.
And they have scribal errors, some accidental and often incidental, but some both deliberate and significant.

I see that Comparative Religion class strikes again.

43 posted on 03/12/2014 4:10:16 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: TBP
Scribes making deliberate changes (not scribal errors, the equivalent of transcribing a small h as a small n) would deliberately make the story consistent. That is why scholars believe that those elements that are the most different are probably close to the originals.

Got any EXAMPLES of these 'deliberate' errors?

44 posted on 03/12/2014 4:12:07 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: boatbums; TBP

Boatbums, I always enjoy your posts. This latest of yours being no exception.

I would like to add one piece of info to “Factor #1” in your post because it is so important. I hope I haven’t overlooked it in your post or the posts of others.

Is. 53. Crucifixion of Yeshua is described, but as of that time being having been yet invented. Further, I believe that a person never need lay eyes upon (although it helps tremendously) the NT to understand Yeshua Our Lord. He is the Old Testament as well as the New.

Isaiah 53 should tell a person of reasonable comprehension skills, who is going at Scriptures in search of truth rather than for reasons to mock it (in which case, they will be blind to the truth anyway because that’s the way it is), that they may need to reconsider their disbelief. There are hundreds upon hundreds of precise predictions that Yeshua fulfilled. The statistical analysis for doing so are astronomical and eye-opening for anyone willing to do their homework to discover just how “absurd” are the results.

It’s early and my head is screaming in pain for the 5th day, and heavy doses of meds aren’t helping. It’s hard to see to read, much less comprehend, so forgive me if I have re-stated a portion of your great post.

TPB, I have included you as courtesy ping since Boatbums was responding to you.

Warm Regards to Both of You,

SC


45 posted on 03/12/2014 4:12:48 AM PDT by SouthernClaire
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To: TBP
Scribes making deliberate changes ...

Yeah; your question has not changed in thousands of years...

Did GOD really say...


46 posted on 03/12/2014 4:14:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: hopespringseternal

If Someone can convince you (or you do it yourself), that the Bible is in error (the basis for ALL cults); then you, as a rational person, do not have to follow what it teaches.


47 posted on 03/12/2014 4:17:40 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: boatbums
But these have been recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and so that through believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:30,31)

What?

I've been 'told' that a LOT more is needed!

What's that thing that Micah wrote??

Micah 6:8
He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

And THIS must SURELY be in error!!!

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


48 posted on 03/12/2014 4:22:48 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: redleghunter
Two posts with assertions and no evidence presented.

And on a conservative site.

Tsk tsk...

49 posted on 03/12/2014 4:24:35 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: redleghunter
How many witnesses were around for the writing of the BOM?

I don't know about the 'writing' of it, but I do have info about the, ahem, 'translation' of it...




"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."
---Joseph Knight's journal.


"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.
(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),
"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.

"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,
as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,
and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.

In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."


"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"
reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881
in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)

In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:
 
 "When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,
Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12
June 15, 1879,  pp. 190-91.)


Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:
 
"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"
("A New Witness for Christ in America,"
Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)


"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."
---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.




50 posted on 03/12/2014 4:26:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: boatbums
Sorry...should have pinged TBP, not TBD. Hope you find this informative.

People who use initials can confuse folks...



;^)



51 posted on 03/12/2014 4:28:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: circlecity
He specifically states that his book is a meticulously researched historical account.

So? (Devil's Advocate mode)

52 posted on 03/12/2014 4:29:40 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: tired&retired
Remember what Jesus said, “I and my Father are one. My Father exists in Me and I in My Father. If you exist in Me then My Father that exists in Me also exists within you.”

No; I do NOT 'remember' this.


Neither does Google®.


No results found for “I and my Father are one. My Father exists in Me and I in My Father. If you exist in Me then My Father that exists in Me also exists within you.”.

53 posted on 03/12/2014 4:33:09 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

So it’s hard to take the anyone seriously who claims the Gospels were no written as historical documents.


54 posted on 03/12/2014 4:40:12 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: redleghunter
How many witnesses were around for the writing of the BOM?

If something is written; then there must be an author...


 
 



 
 

55 posted on 03/12/2014 4:46:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: circlecity

Baghdad Bob specifically said a lot of stuff; but was it accurate?

Self referential statements are troublesome.

An ‘eyewitness’ can state all kinds of things.

We accept them because we know the veracity of the witness; or because OTHER facts also make the same claim.


56 posted on 03/12/2014 4:51:11 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Close.

There’s John Chapter 14.


57 posted on 03/12/2014 4:53:09 AM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: NKP_Vet

If the Church that wrote, copied, preserved and canonized the Bible was fallible, then the Bible could be errant.

R.C. Sproul had the integrity to admit as much, calling the Bible a “fallible collection of infallible books.”

It’s not a coherent position, but at least he was intellectually honest.


58 posted on 03/12/2014 4:55:47 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: Elsie
"We accept them because we know the veracity of the witness; or because OTHER facts also make the same claim."

And every archeological discovery that ever touched on any matter contained in the book of Luke has confirmed the historical accuracy of the book. It is one of the most historically documented works of antiquity. Luke has proved more reliable than Polibyus or Plutarch. Certainly much more reliable than Ceasar's war commentaries.

59 posted on 03/12/2014 4:57:00 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: TBP

Wow. I’m interested in hearing how you came to such a misinformed opinion. It really is quite ignorant. I’ll provide some info that’ll help you gain a more informed opinion once I get to my computer (I’m on my iPad now) ...


60 posted on 03/12/2014 5:01:37 AM PDT by Theo (May Christ be exalted above all.)
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