Posted on 02/02/2015 8:15:08 AM PST by Morgana
The basic disagreement here is not whether a Christian will do good works, but whether those good works are necessary to receive salvation. Even James does not claim that doing good works is necessary to receive salvation - rather, one who has already received salvation will be compelled by the change in his/her heart to do the good works of ministering and caring for others as Christ commanded. That is, the good works are an external evidence of an internal experience that has already occurred. This is where the disagreement with the Catholic Church over the nature of good works occurs.
Or do you think that a Buddhist monk that spends his entire life serving the poor and needy, but never accepts Christ as his savior, will be saved by his good works? Or that the sinner who repents and accepts Christ just before his death, without time or opportunity to perform any good works will be lost?
“Probably until the day after you stop using the word “Papists”.”
Ridiculous and childishly liberal. Whatever term is used will always become perjorative.
Slow becomes retarded. Retarded becomes special, special becomes challenged, challenged becomes differently-abled.
The Negro became colored, colored became black, then black became African American, African American became People of Color, People of Color became People of African Origin,,,
But all are simply trying to describe one common trait. So Papist is as good as Roman Catholic, follower of the Pope, loyalist to the Papacy, etc. It serves to sort them from other Christian sects.
“Ridiculous and childishly liberal. Whatever term is used will always become perjorative.”
Really? Call me a Catholic then.
“**Perhaps Luther made it to heaven after all.**
I sincerely doubt it.”
And in a nutshell, THAT is why Catholic threads are known as propaganda, seen as hostile to all other Christians, and resisted here on FR.
Even the Papacy as reflected in the last several have not embraced the view that only Catholics go to heaven. Are you in schism?
May I quote James to you?
No where does Jesus (or James )say or imply that one is saved by works.
The book of James was written to a converted church , not heathens seeking salvation . It tells them how their conversion is seen by the unsaved world . It is not about becoming saved or being saved. It is about the fruit of your salvation.
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if I say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works
This is an amplification of the teaching of Jesus that we know a tree by the fruit it bears. It is how we know the saved from the unsaved. It does not declare that the man has faith ... but that he SAYS he has faith.
This addresses a hollow profession of faith , not a saving one .Can a hollow profession save him? NO, any more than works can save.
This scripture says to the church that this faith is non existent , it is dead.
The bible is clear that it is God that gives the faith and it is God that ordains the works of the saved
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Hbr 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
Well, I’d take a look at James. Says something about faith without works is dead. I’m taking the meaning to be that works are a sign of having faith. They don’t make you saved, but are a characteristic of having faith.
You’re passage brings up rewards once we get there. They will be passed out accordingly.
Question I have for you is can you loose salvation once it is received?
“Really? Call me a Catholic then.”
That’s not accurate in all places. And it feeds into the delusion that the Roman Church is THE all inclusive, final, and full church of Christ on earth.
So additional descriptors are called for. For example the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, that claim unbroken apostolic succession from the early Church and identify themselves as the Catholic Church.
(Full disclosure: I am an orthodox Missouri Synod Lutheran.)
I agree with you; the works we perform are demonstrative of the thanks we show for the mercy and grace poured out on us by God and the manifestation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We can only do them through God’s grace and the Spirit’s presence.
In trying to understand he differences between the RCC and my confession, I am often struck by how much the RCC must explain things to a point of nearly removing the need for faith. Isn’t enough to believe that God somehow allowed Jesus to be born free from original sin, without the gyrations of making Mary sinless and perfect through an Immaculate Conception? Another: Isn’t Jesus’ death enough to allow us directly into heaven and keep us from the pain and suffering of a purgatory?
This article makes some interesting points but it appears to me that Mr. Staples does what his church does: complicates things by making assumptions. Luther DID believe in Free Will, but understood that as sinners, the only free will we have is the will to do evil. Until the Holy Spirit enters in, we are rotten to our core. No “spark of the divine” exists in us. We’re all bad.
Some will argue semantics on both our parts, but before they do , they must realize that our sinful nature creates an equation that is completely unbalanced We can choose, but will only choose evil. ONLY through the Holy Spirit can we be called, enlightened and sanctified. We are unable to ACCEPT His call (the Baptist view). As long as we don’t actively reject grace, it comes to us and works faith through the intervention of the Holy Spirit because the love of God overcomes the evil with which we are filled. We are spiritually blind, dead, and enemies of God, prior to our Baptism, so much so that our Baptismal Rite includes an exorcism. (”Come out and make room for the Holy Spirit.”)
The good works we do are RESULTS of our salvation, NOT a means of gaining it. (in even some small way).
This “Jesus does it all” idea is demonstrated in the icons so dear to Rome. Look at the old icons and notice where Jesus is gripping the sinner as He delivers him from Hell. Jesus is holding the sinner’s wrist! The sinner’s hand faces down, showing that he has nothing to do with being saved; Jesus does it ALL.
I can’t think of a faith more similar to that of a child than this!
God’s blessings!
And my point is that if someone has negative views towards another, ANY term they use towards the negative target will soon become a perjorative. Then the word must be changed to soothe hurt feelings. The process begins again and again because the issue was never really the word itself. I was the negative way in which the subject is viewed by the speaker.
“Question I have for you is can you loose salvation once it is received?”
OSAS is a Protestant doctrine. It is not an orthodox Christian doctrine. Protestants argue over this themselves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsQXsb7TFHo
OSAS is not protestant doctrine. I have been one my whole life and have never heard of that outside of this forum. I think it was something made up by catholics to attack others with.
“That’s not accurate in all places.”
It is for all Catholics. Place isn’t as important as person of you’re talking to a person. No Catholic will mind being called a Catholic.
“For example the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, that claim unbroken apostolic succession from the early Church and identify themselves as the Catholic Church.”
No. Eastern Orthodox are happy to be called Orthodox. You wouldn’t refer to them as “Patriarchists” now would you? Some Orthodox might prefer to be called Orthodox Catholics - but I’ve never encountered such a person and that still doesn’t mean they would be called Catholic.
If faith without works is dead to Catholics, why do you believe in death-bed salvations? A life-long child molester finally repents minutes before he dies, and he is saved - right? What were his works again? oh right, molested kids.
“OSAS is not protestant doctrine.”
Yes, it is.
“I have been one my whole life and have never heard of that outside of this forum.”
I have - and I am not one.
“I think it was something made up by catholics to attack others with.”
Two Protestants: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mahXVPEXN8
Another Protestant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz1bF3TXB1Y
It’s a Protestant thing.
I take it, then, you are not a Papist? Is not Peter the rock your institution claims to be built upon, the first Pope of a succession down to the present Argentinian Marxist one, Bogdoglio?
Is this not the main premise your institution is known for in the world, your succession of Popes?
Has not your interpretation of Matt. 16:13-19, your alleged proof for your succession of Popes, always been the root cause of Protestant dissent? Protestants interpreting Jesus Christ as the “rock” in the Matt. 16 passage, the true church built upon him, with Christ the head of his church, rather than Peter and your succession of Popes...the Papacy.
The term “Papacy,” thus, has always been at the heart of the RCC vs Protestant issue. Why then act like it is not? “Papacy” is no derogatory term, face the truth, it defines precisely what you are known for in the world. Your succession of Popes is the Papacy.
Yep that is true, and any one who simply will not do anything he tells us to do such as give some one who is thirsty a drink of water obviously does not believe in him.
Pretty much the way I see it.
“If faith without works is dead to Catholics, why do you believe in death-bed salvations?”
Your question makes no sense because it is based upon the premise that God is weak and trapped - something I could never agree on.
“A life-long child molester finally repents minutes before he dies, and he is saved - right?”
Ultimately that is for God to decide, not me or you.
“What were his works again? oh right, molested kids.”
So you believe God is weak? Or that His grace is weak?
Have you never read the Bible? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+20%3A1%E2%80%9316%3B&version=RSVCE
There’s only one way to be saved - by Christ’s grace. All who are saved by His grace will go to Heaven. Some will co-operate with God’s grace their whole lives, others only on their death-beds. The Vineyard Owner provides what is needed. We do not provide it to ourselves.
We are not perfect beings, so salvations is another thing on the list that we can screw up? Should I forget it and be done? Help me understand a little.
Not sure why God would give us an un-perfect gift that can be taken back? I would have thought the Son’s blood would have caused a permanent washing for everything past, present and future? Is it a one time deal where you screw up and you get kicked off the bus?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.